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Ron Miles's flugelhorn tuning technique


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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:30 am    Post subject: flugelhorn intonation Reply with quote

In my experience, a good flugelhorn will intonate reasonably well if the following are observed:

- Make sure you have a mouthpiece shaft that is REALLY the right size and shape. If the mouthpiece only sits at the top of the leadpipe or drops all the way in, things often go wrong.

- Different mouthpiece bore sizes or cup depths can help sorting out octave intonation, e.g. a flatter cup/smaller bore often "sharpens" up the low/middle register.

- If your flugel is "cut" too short and you always have to extend the tuning pipe by a large amount, consider having a custom one made or the original one adapted, so you can play mostly with only up to 1 cm extended. This is a sensitive area where you effectively change the diameter at the beginning instrument dramatically if you have to push the tuning receiver it out too much. Custom leadpipes can also improve intonation or change response/sound.

If the sound of the German language does not scare you off, there are some videos on flugel mouthpieces and custom leadpipes on Matthias Beck's You Tube channel.
He backs it up with IT based resonance/slotting/intonation tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-rD6w1286U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2vwJotb42U
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite an extensive video, thanks for sharing it.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it turns out for my flugel the mouthpiece turned out to be the final piece of the puzzle, intonation-wise. It has a cornet-sized receiver and funnily enough, a Denis Wick 2 works best (I later found out that it’s almost identical to the DW flugelhorn mouthpieces, and has a bigger bore and backbore than my current mouthpiece). So between the new leadpipe, the mouthpiece and using the slides to properly tune it, the intonation problems are pretty much fixed.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@stuartissimo
I'm very pleased for you that this has worked out for you.
Good luck with your flugelhorn endeavours!
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr oakmount wrote:
@stuartissimo
I'm very pleased for you that this has worked out for you.
Good luck with your flugelhorn endeavours!

Thank you kindly. It’s beenvery insightful…I hope others who will read this thread in the future benefit from the information shared here too.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
As it turns out for my flugel the mouthpiece turned out to be the final piece of the puzzle, intonation-wise. It has a cornet-sized receiver and funnily enough, a Denis Wick 2 works best (I later found out that it’s almost identical to the DW flugelhorn mouthpieces, and has a bigger bore and backbore than my current mouthpiece). So between the new leadpipe, the mouthpiece and using the slides to properly tune it, the intonation problems are pretty much fixed.


I am curious: which flügel (cause of the cornet receiver)? And which mouthpiece did you use before the Wick?

BTW Wick 2 mp's are quite big both for cornet and flügel (in fact the biggest they produce).

I became curious and searched my cupboard for DW mouthpieces and found sizes 3, 4 Heritage, 4B, 5B Classic for cornet and 4FL, 4BFL (Classic) for flügelhorn.
I measured them all and found substantial differences between the cornet and the flügel pieces. Though the throat is (roughly) the same, the backbores of the flügelpieces are all wider and bigger and have a bigger end opening (ok, also a bigger shank of course).

Then, the Wick no letter (FL) cup is far deeper on the flügel pieces than on the cornet no letter ones (the FL cups are really deep!). The Wick BFL cup is slightly shallower than the no letter Cornet cup. (The B cornet cup is quite shallow and has no role here).

As usual, the form of the backbore and the form of the cups are much more difficult to determine so I leave that. In any case, the bb's of the flügelpieces seem to taper out more quickly.
And I don't own the 2 sized pieces so...FWIW.
But I doubt seriously that the flügel and cornet mp's of DW are almost identical.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
But I doubt seriously that the flügel and cornet mp's of DW are almost identical.

You are correct of course that cornet and flugel moutpieces aren't 100% the same. My statement was based solely on the (brief) specs listed on the Denis Wick mouthpiece chart. The 2/2F, 3/3F and 4/4F mouthpieces specs listed on the chart appear to be roughly similar. Interestingly, the chart contains a note that the BFL aren't the same as the B cornet cups (though apparently DW used other cornet cups for them). As for the 2/2FL, the rim sizes aren't equal, and they probably have other differences as well, but they do seem to have similar throat, cups and backbore shapes. I only found out after trying and found it a curious coincidence, nothing more than that.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the 'brief specs' on the DW site but there is only vague descriptions as 'open backbore'. And I see that both the cornet mouthpieces and the flügel mouthpieces have an open backbore but that will not make those bb's identical. More specific: the cornet mp's have an open cornet bb, the flügel pieces an open flügel bb.

And still I am very curious which mouthpiece you tried before the DW and which flügel you are playing, more specific, I am very curious about the cornet mp sized receiver. I thought the 20A was a lonely bird.
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