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Standard type III embouchure on trumpet



 
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LyonLover
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:59 pm    Post subject: Standard type III embouchure on trumpet Reply with quote

Pretty sure I have a standard type III, which I have been told is rare on trumpet. My horn angle is low, so I use a bent mpc to fix it for marching band. My bottom lip rolls in, and my mpc placement is low. I really struggle with airballs in the high register a lot especially after a days to a week of moderate to heavy playing. How can I manage this standard type III best? I always hear about type IIIA and type IIIB but standard is rare on trumpet.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:24 am    Post subject: Basic fundamentals - not specifically Reinhardt Reply with quote

Learn to use some lower lip rim pressure to help support the mouthpiece and to work in conjunction with upper lip pressure. It is more about the feeling of lower lip rim pressure than much actual jaw movement.

BTW - old time OSU band director Jack Meeker was my HS band director (back in the mid '60s) - ya I'm THAT old.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're curious to know what patterns your embouchure tendencies follow you will want to get a lesson with someone who has experience with that topic. Since you're talking about Reinhardt's embouchure types here you might get some help if you post over in that forum, since more folks there will understand what a Type III embouchure is and how it functions.

You describe your embouchure as a Type III, but even with the more common embouchure types I never assume that someone types themselves correctly unless I've had a chance to watch them play. You may have mistyped yourself. Or you may actually be playing as a Type III, but you might really do better playing as a different embouchure type. Type III players have been known to evolve into one of the more common embouchure types after a while, so maybe this is just a stage in your development.

Without being able to watch you play even the most knowledgable teacher who knows exactly what your embouchure type is can't do more than give you some general suggestions that apply to most players. Try to grab a lesson, when you can.

Dave
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
If you're curious to know what patterns your embouchure tendencies follow you will want to get a lesson with someone who has experience with that topic. Since you're talking about Reinhardt's embouchure types here you might get some help if you post over in that forum, since more folks there will understand what a Type III embouchure is and how it functions.

You describe your embouchure as a Type III, but even with the more common embouchure types I never assume that someone types themselves correctly unless I've had a chance to watch them play. You may have mistyped yourself. Or you may actually be playing as a Type III, but you might really do better playing as a different embouchure type. Type III players have been known to evolve into one of the more common embouchure types after a while, so maybe this is just a stage in your development.

Without being able to watch you play even the most knowledgable teacher who knows exactly what your embouchure type is can't do more than give you some general suggestions that apply to most players. Try to grab a lesson, when you can.

Dave

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Wilktone wrote:
If you're curious to know what patterns your embouchure tendencies follow ...

----------------------------
It's unclear to me if the OP is actually using any Reinhardt-style instruction or techniques, or if it's just a 'non-expert diagnosis' of being a type III.

At what point would a teacher (maybe not a Reinhardt devotee) who recognizes that a student appropriately uses a particular Reinhardt setup, then guide the student along Reinhardt methodology? As opposed to guiding the student in a more individualized path of development.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pretty sure I have a standard type III, which I have been told is rare on trumpet. My horn angle is low, so I use a bent mpc to fix it for marching band. My bottom lip rolls in, and my mpc placement is low. I really struggle with airballs in the high register a lot especially after a days to a week of moderate to heavy playing. How can I manage this standard type III best? I always hear about type IIIA and type IIIB but standard is rare on trumpet.


Caveat - Not an expert like the Reinhardt students on here, so will just post some different things to look into that I recall from the encyclopedia etc.

Daily Trio of Calisthenics. Lip Buzzing, Pencil and Jaw forward exercises, but start with hardly any and use common sense.

Lip Buzzing - See Wilktone's videos on youtube about buzzing.

If you really are a III, then from what I recall from the encyclopedia, you're basically playing on a lip buzzing embouchure.

I'm not sure whether Walking In the buzz would be a good thing unless you're 100% sure about your type. You mention you have a low placement, in which case you might not actually be a III. Or you might be, but are just being fooled by what is visible outside the mouthpiece, which can be misleading.

The Calisthenics, especially lip buzzing, should gradually help. Again, common sense would be pretty important. Working around your playing demands, and don't overdo it.

Soft air attacks to regain focus - the Spiderweb routine could be worth looking up? Will help you regain focus, and there is a lot of that sort of stuff in the Reinhardt Routines.

And just make sure your lips are just barely touching inside the mouthpiece while you breathe through the corners. You might just be inadvertently pinning them open when you breathe.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
At what point would a teacher (maybe not a Reinhardt devotee) who recognizes that a student appropriately uses a particular Reinhardt setup, then guide the student along Reinhardt methodology? As opposed to guiding the student in a more individualized path of development.


Even with the same embouchure type much of the instruction needs to be individualized. Understanding the embouchure type gives the teacher a "road map" for patterns that are successful with similar players and offer clues towards things that cause problems. Sometimes you can correct a technique flaw before it even starts to cause problems.

Overall, I try to look at the student's overall abilities, what they are doing well and what they need to work on. Then I prioritize what corrections and suggestions to make accordingly. Sometimes I will prioritize something that is a relatively quick fix first because it will help stabilize something else. Sometimes I will first address something that takes longer to fix, but because the longer it goes uncorrected the harder it will be to break that habit. Over time, I have noticed some things that are easier to fix than others, but this is an area that is also an individual path. You need to work with the student some and try out different things to see what works.

But perhaps this discussion would fit the Pedagogy section better. Getting back more on topic, LyonLover I think Destructo's suggestions above are a good place to start exploring some embouchure basics that are near universal, in my opinion. Just don't work on more than 1 thing at a time, 2 at most if it's helping. The point isn't to juggle a myriad of different mechanical procedures, it's to establish good playing habits over time so can focus on making good music.

Dave
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Standard type III embouchure on trumpet Reply with quote

LyonLover wrote:
Pretty sure I have a standard type III, which I have been told is rare on trumpet. My horn angle is low, so I use a bent mpc to fix it for marching band. My bottom lip rolls in, and my mpc placement is low. I really struggle with airballs in the high register a lot especially after a days to a week of moderate to heavy playing. How can I manage this standard type III best? I always hear about type IIIA and type IIIB but standard is rare on trumpet.


The best way to handle it is this:
Don't assume that your self- diagnosis is correct. And they way that you are playing now is not necessarily your correct type.

I have only ever seen 1 or 2 players (besides Reinhardt himself) who were definitely Type III and they were on trombone. It's VERY rare. I know there have been reports here of Type III trumpet players but I've never seen one myself. Using Chris LaBarbara as an example, he plays with a very low horn angle and you might think he would be a III, but he's a IIIB. It's a subtle difference and I didn't really understand it entirely myself until Doc corrected my misdiagnosis of somebody.
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Destructo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
Just don't work on more than 1 thing at a time, 2 at most if it's helping. The point isn't to juggle a myriad of different mechanical procedures, it's to establish good playing habits over time so can focus on making good music.

Dave


Forgive what might be a very obvious question here, and this is open to responses from anyone, but when folks talk about 1 or 2 corrections at a time, does this mean that your practise of that correction stays focused on that 1 or 2 thing/s until it/they are completely habituated? A few months+ for most things?

Also, the corrections are probably not things you can spend all of your practise time on [?], so how do you typically ask students to integrate that into their practise routine?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Destructo wrote:
Wilktone wrote:
Just don't work on more than 1 thing at a time, 2 at most if it's helping. The point isn't to juggle a myriad of different mechanical procedures, it's to establish good playing habits over time so can focus on making good music.

Dave


Forgive what might be a very obvious question here, and this is open to responses from anyone, but when folks talk about 1 or 2 corrections at a time, does this mean that your practise of that correction stays focused on that 1 or 2 thing/s until it/they are completely habituated? A few months+ for most things?

Also, the corrections are probably not things you can spend all of your practise time on [?], so how do you typically ask students to integrate that into their practise routine?


Concentrating on a correction might be just for one or two exercises, so hopefully you will retain at least some of it as you go on to other things. That's really the entire basis of Reinhardt exercises... Concentrate, then forget and just play. If you do that every day, whatever it is you're working on gradually becomes muscle memory and becomes the way you play.
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