Joined: 20 Dec 2020 Posts: 18 Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: Double buzz
Hi guys,
Not sure if this will really come under ‘fundamentals’, but I’ll ask anyway (please redirect me if anyone feels appropriate!) …
I’m a ‘come back’ player, kind of. Long story. I’ve messaged before about a problem that I had with a double buzz, I was playing fairly large symphonic mouthpieces, 1 1/4C, 1 1/2C, etc. I was recommended to play on ‘smaller’ mouthpieces so I gave things like a Bach 2 1/2C, Bach 2C ‘Megatone’, Denis Wick 4, and 4B, and even a Warburton PC2D, Philip Cobb 2D (I am British 🏴🎺😜), amongst some others.
The double buzz did become less of an issue, certainly, but my limited ability lips didn’t feel so comfy on the smaller mouthpieces. So I did return to the ‘larger’ symphonic mouthpieces, and the double buzz was much less of an issue. I even treated myself to a standard Monette B2 S3, that I’m really enjoying, with no significant double buzz, until …. I stick a Harmon mute in my bell!!
I’ve got a copper Mutech Harmon mute and a Jo Ral copper bubble Harmon …. I really struggle with a double buzz on low C on both those mutes, on any symphonic mouthpieces, Monette B2 S3, and Schilke Symphony F1 in particular, but I do NOT have the double buzz on those very same mouthpieces WITHOUT the Harmon mutes!
Can anyone please help me with this? Why is the cursed double buzz happening on those mouthpieces with the Harmon mutes, but not an issue without the mutes? I’m getting really frustrated with this, I love the Harmon mutes in the middle to high reg but it’s being spoiled in the low (just low C!!) register …. Why???
Kindest regards,
Donald 🎺🏴 _________________ Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 250 Location: Phoenix AZ
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:46 pm Post subject:
Let me start by saying I'm a comeback player on the lower end of the skills spectrum. I'm only commenting because I've had double-buzz issues at exactly the same point (low C). My flugelhorn is worst, but not even that is as bad as trumpet/cornet with the harmon mute. Most forum discussions tend to cover double buzzing in the mid to higher ranges.
A while back, a user named dbacon posted an experiment to determine lip dominance. He since deleted the post, but you can figure out the experiment from what I've written about it below. With a card covering my top lip, I can produce a pretty normal tone; with my bottom lip covered, my top lip produces only a pedal tone very much like the secondary part of my double buzz.
I already had a fairly low mouthpiece placement. What I have tried since the experiment, and subsequent to my quote below, is going a little lower (about as low as I can get without playing on red), using a slightly drier top lip to keep it in place, and when pressure is needed I put the pressure on the top lip. That has ended the double-buzz entirely and increased my range and endurance. It's had a few other benefits as well.
Shifty wrote:
I think I produce a pretty good tone, although I'm a bit range/endurance limited. Generally topping out at high C, but some days even that gets pinched off, especially later in the session. I'd read that the money is in the top lip, and to punish the bottom lip when necessary. My bottom teeth are pretty jagged, so I have to be careful of that.
And I saw one comment indicating that you can detect an upstream embouchure by where the moisture collects in the mouthpiece. For me, it's always in the top half (at least on trumpet), so I guess that would make me upstream. I hadn't thought about, or been able to figure out, the "which lip vibrates" puzzle.
I tried this experiment with a business card. With my lower lip covered, I produced no tone at all; with the top lip covered, I do produce a solid tone (lacking sparkle ). The rare lower lip player!?
Hmmm. Maybe that's why I have a problem with a double buzz at low C; a crossover point? I've mitigated that by shifting pressure to the upper lip in the lower ranges. That seems to be the only time my upper lip wants to vibrate, but it seems to contribute a pedal tone. A subtle pivot and pressure change manages it.
Hmmm again. Maybe I need to punish the upper lip instead of the lower lip. I've only tried it in one session, but using the upper lip as the pressure point so as to ensure that the lower lip can continue to vibrate (instead of the reverse), the high notes don't get pinched off. High C remains clear and easier to attain. I surprised myself with a C sharp and D as well.
I am still adapting to the change, but I like it so far. This might not help you at all, but it's something to look at. _________________ Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn
Aperture too open, or a 'weak' embouchure, and on occasion the top teeth touching the bottom lip when playing.
Play a bit softer, take your progress slower, downsizeequipment. _________________ "To have have fun, to learn, to improve. To share my perspective on how to navigate playing the trumpet to the best of my ability. To preserve and champion high art, artistic integrity, and live instrumental music."
Item Number 1 appears to have identified the root cause for me. And it pointed to a solution that worked. _________________ Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn
I'm glad you found a solution. _________________ "To have have fun, to learn, to improve. To share my perspective on how to navigate playing the trumpet to the best of my ability. To preserve and champion high art, artistic integrity, and live instrumental music."
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:09 pm Post subject: Unfurling and the amount of top and bottom lip in the cup
Hi,
I'd like to throw this idea into the mix. I struggled with double buzz for a while about 8 years ago and also 11 years ago.
The thing that cleared it up for me, and the thing I focus on if it rears its ugly head after a particularly hard schedule that I wasnt really prepared for is this:
Double buzz is caused when the acoustic impedance of the top lip and bottom lip are so close to the same, that the system kind of short circuits...
Instead of one lip being dominant, both fight for dominance. My solution is along the lines of a higher or lower mouthpiece placement, but not the same. I call it unfurling, if you have an embouchure where generally your top lip vibrates more dominantly, then try to reomve a little top lip from the cup. You don't need to change your placement per say, just trying to pull the top lip a little up and out of the cup will help. The same is true of the bottom lip if thats the predominantly vibrating lip. When you begin to play with amount of lip in the cup, you'll probably also find that smaller mouthpieces begin to work more successfuly for you.
The very simple and effective first step of this approach is detailed by charlie porter in the following video, where he talks about curling the lips rather then pinching them.
Charlie actually advocates not curling, but more rolling, I dont think curling is dangerous per say. I think its alot to do with overall strength and integrity of the embouchure as a whole, as well as the fit of the mouthpiece ot the player.
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Unfurling and the amount of top and bottom lip in the cu
TristanButton wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to throw this idea into the mix. I struggled with double buzz for a while about 8 years ago and also 11 years ago.
The thing that cleared it up for me, and the thing I focus on if it rears its ugly head after a particularly hard schedule that I wasnt really prepared for is this:
Double buzz is caused when the acoustic impedance of the top lip and bottom lip are so close to the same, that the system kind of short circuits...
Instead of one lip being dominant, both fight for dominance. My solution is along the lines of a higher or lower mouthpiece placement, but not the same. I call it unfurling, if you have an embouchure where generally your top lip vibrates more dominantly, then try to reomve a little top lip from the cup. You don't need to change your placement per say, just trying to pull the top lip a little up and out of the cup will help. The same is true of the bottom lip if thats the predominantly vibrating lip. When you begin to play with amount of lip in the cup, you'll probably also find that smaller mouthpieces begin to work more successfuly for you.
The very simple and effective first step of this approach is detailed by charlie porter in the following video, where he talks about curling the lips rather then pinching them.
Charlie actually advocates not curling, but more rolling, I dont think curling is dangerous per say. I think its alot to do with overall strength and integrity of the embouchure as a whole, as well as the fit of the mouthpiece ot the player.
Hope this helps.
Any questions, get in touch
Please clarify this? The bolded part. My understanding is that the top lip is the only lip that vibrates in the standard trumpet register(and only in low brass on low registers do both vibrate)
I'll be honest, I have gone down the road of what I call micro-managing mechanics, and sometimes still need to, but less and less. I generally focus on sound completely to diagnose problems. And I still hold to my three reasons for a double buzz.
Edit: You mean if the bottom lip vibrating is more pronounced during the double buzz, yes? IE 'Louder' _________________ "To have have fun, to learn, to improve. To share my perspective on how to navigate playing the trumpet to the best of my ability. To preserve and champion high art, artistic integrity, and live instrumental music."
In my experience, the vast majority of trumpet players have top lips that are predominantly vibrating inside the cup. But there are exceptions where the lower lip is the main vibrating lip. That is why I made sure to cover the people who have a predominantly vibrating lower lip. The true definition of upstream and downstream has less to do with horn angle, and more to do with which lip is the dominant occilator.
I understand the idea of using sound as a diagnostic tool, I went away from it many years ago, as it didnt seem to work for me on a consistent basis.
For me the mechanical approach seems to yield best results.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Unfurling and the amount of top and bottom lip in the cu
TheHighNotes wrote:
Please clarify this? The bolded part. My understanding is that the top lip is the only lip that vibrates in the standard trumpet register(and only in low brass on low registers do both vibrate)
On brass instruments both lips will vibrate, but one lip will predominate inside the mouthpiece and vibrate with more intensity than the other lip. It's not quite like a double reed, where both reeds vibrate equally, it sort of closer to a clarinet or saxophone embouchure, where the reed does all the vibrating against the hard surface of the woodwind mouthpiece. In the case of brass instruments, the predominant lip is more like the woodwind reed and the other lip serves more like the woodwind mouthpiece.
The above description is true for all brass, trumpet through tuba. You can see this in Lloyd Leno's film on trombone embouchures.
Downstream embouchures, where the top lip predominates, is indeed the most common. There are a couple of papers I've read that purport that the top lip is the only one that vibrates, but those are a very small sample size (1 player!) and not very robust methodology. There's really no controversy that both lips vibrate and the predominate one vibrates with more intensity than the other.
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). The rare lower lip player!?
