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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:12 am Post subject: Playing French horn parts with trumpet? |
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The orchestra I play with has a very small brass section: 1 trumpet, 1 French horn, 1 trombone, 1 tuba. There is a second trumpet player but due to other commitments, he can only make a little over half the rehearsals and gigs.
So, if one of the brass cannot make a gig we need to find a sub, but for some reason that’s hard even though there are many brass groups around. So here is an idea that the director (who also arranges specifically for the orchestra) and I have come up with: put important parts into the sheet music of someone else. The director has done this with clarinet/alto sax/flute voices where the clarinets get “bracket music” (only to be played if e.g. alto sax 1 is not making a gig) but we haven’t done it for brass.
Obviously I could play the trombone part on the bass trumpet if our trombone player can’t make it but: what do you think about playing French horn parts on either trumpet (range?) or bass trumpet? We’re pondering a few parts such as the melody in Libertango or some melody in Shostakovichs Jazz Waltz for starters. Just in case the horn player gets sick or something.
Will discuss with the director anyway but I know there are a few horn/trumpet doublers on here, so any input is appreciated. And yes, I am aware of the fact that a non-French horn will sound like a non-French horn but that is still better than 16 bars rest and no melody. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 984 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Have you considered doubling the French horn parts on flugelhorn instead of trumpet? It matches the sound better than trumpet. I've recently had a few gigs where I brought my flugelhorn for French horn parts (I used to double on French horn) and as long as the parts aren't too low (i.e. below the staff on the original French horn part) it works reasonably well. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2036 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:26 am Post subject: |
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I've done this in small groups with flugelhorn subbing for French Horn. Not a perfect match, so minor tweaking of the parts is sometimes needed, but the voicing is better than on trumpet. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, that occurred to me after sending off the post. My flugel is a regular 3 valve instrument, would you use that or would I need to add a valve? I know stuff like this has been discussed before but can’t find the thread right now. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Could also be done by the t-bone. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:58 am Post subject: |
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stuartissimo wrote: | Have you considered doubling the French horn parts on flugelhorn instead of trumpet? It matches the sound better than trumpet. I've recently had a few gigs where I brought my flugelhorn for French horn parts (I used to double on French horn) and as long as the parts aren't too low (i.e. below the staff on the original French horn part) it works reasonably well. |
Flugelhorn substitute here as well! Not often, but suitable when missing horn player.
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Yes, we’ve done that once, with mixed results
Edit: that was a response to the bone comment. But good to see that flugel could be the way to go (and I may finally have a reason to play more flugel again). _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:28 am Post subject: |
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An important consideration for producing a 'French horn tone' is to realize that the horn sound is more 'environmental' than 'directional' (such as trumpet or t-bone).
I play horn with the mental intend of having the sound 'fill the area', and not so much 'projection' - but of course has to have adequate loudness to be heard. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 984 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | Yeah, that occurred to me after sending off the post. My flugel is a regular 3 valve instrument, would you use that or would I need to add a valve? I know stuff like this has been discussed before but can’t find the thread right now. |
It's doable provided the horn part isn't to low. IIRC anything in (or above) the staff on French horn is quite playable on flugelhorn. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Baritone/euphonium often plays the french horn parts. I see cues all the time in my euphonium parts for horns. If you are a trumpet player, the baritone is an easy switch still playing Bb music with the same fingering as trumpet. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9014 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:43 am Post subject: |
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(deleted) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ancientram Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2019 Posts: 86 Location: Fairborn OH USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: Sub for Horn Parts |
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As someone who plays both horn and trumpet/flugel, in the case of "popular/legit" music, I like the idea of using a flugel to replace a horn part. A four-valve would definitely help.
If you're looking at Handel, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, most of this music is for two horns (with a few notable exceptions-- Haydn 51 and Beethoven 3 & 9). The first horn part is high and the second is low, so a trombone or bass trumpet may serve you better if you seek to fill in the second part.
Once you get to Beethoven 9, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, etc., there are four horn parts, with transposition a constant until Tchaik and Shos.
Hope this helps.
Steve |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:49 am Post subject: |
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What you need is one KFC bucket, spray painted black, clipped to your stand. Insert bell into bucket and you have a poor-man's horn substitute. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Seems I was a bit unclear. Yes, we’re looking to transfer important parts to other sections or individual instruments within the orchestra. As odd as it seems, although there is a large brass tradition here, it is mostly trombone choirs (church brass ensembles) and those folks are not usually comfortable reading transposed music. They only read concert pitch, i.e., a C for them is 13, so they are not obvious subs. We’ve tried it but was kinda hard, especially on short notice.
Distributing to different instruments is a good idea that we need to follow up. We play across the board, from Abba to Bach and everything in between including a variety of folk music. So maybe a flugel/bass trumpet/oboe distribution as we see fit could be nice. Will think about that. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Matt, I WAS thinking about bucket mutes but you seem to refer more to larger (what are those Dixieland mutes called again?) varieties. Good idea, especially when combining with a flugel. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9014 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: |
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The more I look at this, the confuseder I get.
Is it the French Horn part you're needing to replace?
But you can play another instrument with bass trumpet?
Your thread title asks, "Playing French horn parts with trumpet?" The answer is use a Flugelhorn. It's no more complicated than that _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have covered high horn parts on flugelhorn and low horn parts on trombone, and in both cases there can be times when the part is unplayably low on flugel or uncomfortably high on trombone. When I was covering these parts I never obsessed about whether I sounded "enough" like a french horn -- I was playing notes that the conductor wanted played.
Before you buy a four-valve flugelhorn consider buying a cheap Eb (or F) alto-voice brass instrument. I have a vintage King Eb/F alto horn (mentioned in this thread: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1420707 ). It works as a 'tweener instrument for some horn parts -- I use mine when the local Beatles cover band plays "Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band," simply to honk with enough volume on the low notes. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Quadstriker Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2021 Posts: 107
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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mafields627 wrote: | What you need is one KFC bucket, spray painted black, clipped to your stand. Insert bell into bucket and you have a poor-man's horn substitute. |
Is it better to go original or extra crispy or does it depend on the chart? |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Quadstriker wrote: | mafields627 wrote: | What you need is one KFC bucket, spray painted black, clipped to your stand. Insert bell into bucket and you have a poor-man's horn substitute. |
Is it better to go original or extra crispy or does it depend on the chart? |
Whichever they will give you for free! _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:31 am Post subject: |
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It sounds like your inclination is (1) just play the horn part on trumpet or trombone (which I think is probably fine!) but then a lot of us are suggesting (2) consider another instrument (flugelhorn, trombone, euphonium, etc.). Being a gearhead I'm sympathetic to 2; I have a mellophone and also saw a tenor horn for sale recently. However, I think if there's a melody part it's also fine to just play on trumpet or bass trumpet. |
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