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Should I practise RO too?



 
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Jamer
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Joined: 23 Aug 2022
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:33 am    Post subject: Should I practise RO too? Reply with quote

Hy everyone,

I’m a semi-professional Trumpet/Flugelhorn-Player from Austria. I have had a lot of issues with my embrochure and breathing the past previous years but now, my current embrouchure is stable with a good sound up to d‘‘‘ and a very good endurance. I bought the book "balanced embouchure" back in 2013 but I never was allowed to use it, because most professional Trumpet-teachers over here teach the „Farkas-embouchure“ and want to see the chin pinned down by the muscles. So thats why I wasn’t able to do this method properly. But since 2013 I am using Lip clamp & Lip clamp squeak regulary, because I felt that it would give my chops more stamina. I did this exercises regulary the past 10 years.

This summer I decided to explore your method more, because I want to extend my range and I’m kinda stuck at d‘‘‘. The Roll-In exercises are pretty easy and I can hiss/squeak a c‘‘‘‘ at very low volume. So far I’ve just done the RI-exercises because I’m a bit afraid oft he Roll-out exercises: I want to keep my Lip opening as focused as possible. With roll out, you learn the exact opposite, am I right? In the past, my teachers said I would play with a too big lip-opening, thats why my range wouldn’t extend. So roll-out would not help me?!? What do you think?

At the moment I’m practising RI on a daily basis after my warmup-Programm (Warmup-Programm: Stamp with Moutphiece, Variations of Lip-Flexibilities (Colin) and Clarke) or at the very end of a practise-session.

I’ve already experiencing some progress after a few weeks doing RI-exercises: The e‘‘‘ is stable now and it just feels easy, without pressure. I wish that I could play the high range louder but I guess this will be possible when I keep progressing with the RI-exercises. My embouchure hasn’t changed much but at a‘‘ the lips begin to feel more „rolled in“ and it’s easier form me to hit those notes above a'' now.

Kind regards

Jamer
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The purpose of the RO and RI exercises are to create the ability for the lips to move seamlessly from rolled out (einsetzen) to rolled in (ansetzen). Note that those terms (einsetzen and ansetzen) come from the French horn world and are not completely applicable to what we do on trumpet, but the concepts are close. The RO and RI exercises are to be done in isolation from the music so that when you return to the music you play with your natural embouchure that has been trained to have flexibility and freedom to move - not to be rigid in one shape or another (RO verses RI). So, yes, I think if you incorporate RO you will see benefits throughout all registers.
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Jamer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mafields627 wrote:
The RO and RI exercises are to be done in isolation from the music so that when you return to the music you play with your natural embouchure that has been trained to have flexibility and freedom to move - not to be rigid in one shape or another (RO verses RI). So, yes, I think if you incorporate RO you will see benefits throughout all registers.


The balanced embouchure is a training method for me to help me to become a better musician. I play all my gigs with my "normal" embouchure. But I can feel a few little embouchure changes the past couple of weeks, which came automatically: The lips seem to be more focused above a'' and the notes above a'' are easier to hit and play without thinking too much about my embouchure during the concerts & rehearsals. There is also a better feehling of the airstream between my lips. So I think this effect comes from practicing RI the past couple of weeks.

Which brings me back to my question and the reason I started this topic:

So there is no reason for me to be afraid of losing the ability to keep my my lip-opening as small and efficient as possible? Like I said in my first post: One of my embouchure problem in the past was, that the lip opening was to big and I couldn't control it. The Roll-Out exercises could bring back that issue....
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are picking and choosing exercises according to your current bias. When you do that, the results will always vary, and typically the results you get will be only a fraction of your development potential via BE.

BE is a complete embouchure development method. I wrote the following in an earlier post:

"Players who try out exercises in BE, and keep what they want and ignore the rest, are missing the bigger picture. Rather, there are stages of development that players go through. At certain stages of development, the value of different exercises kick in. So, it is always better to get good at all the exercises, because they work together. In the early stages, this may not be apparent. The player at an early stage doesn't know what he doesn't know. "

Players who don't recognize the value of ALS, TOL, snaps, zips, etc, are missing the bigger picture. Further, if you have a teacher not trained in the value of doing BE, you will likely not get much encouragement in pursuing BE. And that is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Regarding the RO question, the answer is no, it does not result in developing a too-large lip opening. If you do the exercise properly, the lip opening is tiny. The main difference between RI and RO exercises is that different muscles are activated and different lip tissue vibrates.

Hope this helps!

Jeff
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jamer,

One of the great benefits of RO is that it helps you to 'downsize' the buzzing area of the lips, as you learn how to play the double pedals with increasingly better focus over time. In that sense, it does the opposite of what you fear it might do. It will be a terrific aid to the RI component to increase efficiency, you're only approaching it from the opposite end of the lip range of motion. When everything starts to interlock and synthesize into a higher state of balance, you will be in for a treat, so I hope you can ditch the fear and dive into the method more fully.

Ko
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Jamer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
You are picking and choosing exercises according to your current bias. When you do that, the results will always vary, and typically the results you get will be only a fraction of your development potential via BE.

BE is a complete embouchure development method. I wrote the following in an earlier post:

"Players who try out exercises in BE, and keep what they want and ignore the rest, are missing the bigger picture. Rather, there are stages of development that players go through. At certain stages of development, the value of different exercises kick in. So, it is always better to get good at all the exercises, because they work together. In the early stages, this may not be apparent. The player at an early stage doesn't know what he doesn't know. "

Players who don't recognize the value of ALS, TOL, snaps, zips, etc, are missing the bigger picture. Further, if you have a teacher not trained in the value of doing BE, you will likely not get much encouragement in pursuing BE. And that is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Regarding the RO question, the answer is no, it does not result in developing a too-large lip opening. If you do the exercise properly, the lip opening is tiny. The main difference between RI and RO exercises is that different muscles are activated and different lip tissue vibrates.

Hope this helps!

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

thanks for your fast response. As the descriptions in your book, your answer is very clear and understandable and that’s what I like about your writing/method. It just makes sense.

I will start with the RO-excercises on Monday. So far I played your RI-exercises after my warmup-program or at the very end of my practise session, uasally for 20-30 minutes. It won’t hurt to extend that time to 40-45 min for the RO-exercises.
But I’m almost sure that I’m on the right track. It can’t be coincidence that I made so much pregression the last couple of weeks just when I’ve started to practising your Roll-In excercises. Even some musicans from my band have recognised my improved sound. I did not sound bad before, but it sounds much easier at the moment, especiallyl the range between a‘‘ to d‘‘‘. The past couple of years I needed much air-compression and energy to perform between a‘‘ and d‘‘‘. Now it sounds so easy and not forced.

It will be interesting to hear what my regular teacher will say in autumn. My embouchure hasn’t changed but the chin isn’t pinned down anymore but the sound is still there or even better than it was before.

I’m excited to develope further progression with your method.

Thanks for your help & kind regards,

Jamer
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Trumpjerele
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I bought the book "balanced embouchure" back in 2013 but I never was allowed to use it, because most professional Trumpet-teachers over here teach the „Farkas-embouchure“ and want to see the chin pinned down by the muscles


I am saddened to read this.

The BE book was published over 20 years ago and the "official" education community is still resisting it.

Why does he have to practice BE behind his teacher's back? The worst thing is that his teachers have transferred their fears.

10 years with the book in the drawer is a long time.

Give the BE book a sincere chance and plan a routine that ends up encompassing all the exercises in the book, don't forget the "humble" TOL, crescendo and HTE exercises, nor of course the ALS exercises.

Try every day to get a little closer to the sound on the CD, don't settle for less. The closer you get to exactly copying the CD guys, the more success you will have with BE.

All this last I say more to myself than to you.

You will improve and become convinced that you are doing the right thing and may even become angry with your past teachers for discouraging you from doing the exercises in the book earlier.
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello BE Explorers

KO writes
Quote:
One of the great benefits of RO is that it helps you to 'downsize' the buzzing area of the lips, as you learn how to play the double pedals with increasingly better focus over time. In that sense, it does the opposite of what you fear it might do.


I 'll second (support) this. Within a year BE delivered me a smaller lip opening. This meant that I was able, by intervals, to "downsize" from one of the largest Wedge mp (.685mm) sizes to one of the smallest (.620mm)

Best wishes to all and stay safe,

Steve in Helsinki.
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