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Who does the best vintage trumpet/cornet restoration?


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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Halflip"]
James Becker wrote:
Applying the term renovation is a I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists".

At any rate, thanks for bringing a professional's insights to this interesting discussion.


According to a conversation I had with Josh Landress, a total cosmetic restoration, at least in my own case, lowered the value of one of my horns. I purchased a large bore Chicago Benge that was dent free, but all the lacquer had been stripped and the valves were starting to lose compression. I sent the horn in for a valve job, and decided to have the horn relacquered with virtually no buffing, not for cosmetic reasons, but because there were areas on the horn that were starting to wear rather thin such as the underside of the bell flare just past the third valve. My primary concern was for overall playability, therefore the valve job, and preservation, therefore the minimally buffed relacquer. As all my horns were purchase to play and not flip, the loss in value as explained by Josh Landress was of no concern.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="adagiotrumpet"]
Halflip wrote:
James Becker wrote:
Applying the term renovation is a I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists".

At any rate, thanks for bringing a professional's insights to this interesting discussion.


According to a conversation I had with Josh Landress, a total cosmetic restoration, at least in my own case, lowered the value of one of my horns. I purchased a large bore Chicago Benge that was dent free, but all the lacquer had been stripped and the valves were starting to lose compression. I sent the horn in for a valve job, and decided to have the horn relacquered with virtually no buffing, not for cosmetic reasons, but because there were areas on the horn that were starting to wear rather thin such as the underside of the bell flare just past the third valve. My primary concern was for overall playability, therefore the valve job, and preservation, therefore the minimally buffed relacquer. As all my horns were purchase to play and not flip, the loss in value as explained by Josh Landress was of no concern.

I guess it all depends on the restoration and the condition as well the horn.
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Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="chef8489"]
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Halflip wrote:

I guess it all depends on the restoration and the condition as well the horn


The impression I got from Josh, unless I misunderstood, was that like a vintage car, they are only original once. And as with vintage cars, mechanical restoration may be necessary to keep the cars running and the horns optimally playable. However, cosmetic restoration resulting in the loss of the original patina may in all probability, lower the overall value of the instrument. Since, in my case the horn had already been stripped, whether or not the horn had already lost some value I guess is a gray area. At least now when I play the horn, my hands don't turn black and as long as I can see lacquer, I know the brass is being protected.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="adagiotrumpet"]
chef8489 wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Halflip wrote:

I guess it all depends on the restoration and the condition as well the horn


The impression I got from Josh, unless I misunderstood, was that like a vintage car, they are only original once. And as with vintage cars, mechanical restoration may be necessary to keep the cars running and the horns optimally playable. However, cosmetic restoration resulting in the loss of the original patina may in all probability, lower the overall value of the instrument. Since, in my case the horn had already been stripped, whether or not the horn had already lost some value I guess is a gray area. At least now when I play the horn, my hands don't turn black and as long as I can see lacquer, I know the brass is being protected.


Like I said all depends on the horn. This cornet hasn't been stripped.. the lacquer is in splotches. It needs to be stripped and restored.
_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
According to a conversation I had with Josh Landress, a total cosmetic restoration, at least in my own case, lowered the value of one of my horns.

Did he say approximately how much the value was lowered?

I am interested in whether it was a 'precipitous' drop in value, along the lines of those classic stories where someone has a Chippendale Regency dining set restored and is told, "That would have been worth $10,000, but now that it's been refinished, I wouldn't give you 500 bucks for it."

In a subsequent post I made to this thread, I said, "My statement only says that, in my personal experience, I haven't witnessed a case where a brass instrument has dropped precipitously in monetary value on the 'open market' due to an expert cosmetic restoration." I guess I clarified my position a bit after the point where you quoted me. (BTW, your quote got somewhat mangled -- it looks like my statement is mashed together with something James Becker said, with the entire thing being attributed to James Becker. I find that it helps to use the "Preview" button a lot to make sure nested quotes get displayed correctly.)
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
According to a conversation I had with Josh Landress, a total cosmetic restoration, at least in my own case, lowered the value of one of my horns. I purchased a large bore Chicago Benge that was dent free, but all the lacquer had been stripped and the valves were starting to lose compression. I sent the horn in for a valve job, and decided to have the horn relacquered with virtually no buffing, not for cosmetic reasons, but because there were areas on the horn that were starting to wear rather thin such as the underside of the bell flare just past the third valve. My primary concern was for overall playability, therefore the valve job, and preservation, therefore the minimally buffed relacquer. As all my horns were purchase to play and not flip, the loss in value as explained by Josh Landress was of no concern.


I can’t imagine why the value of your horn would be lowered by what you had done to it. The original lacquer had been removed by a previous owner, so in my opinion, that’s what lowered the value of the instrument. The raw brass finish might be more appealing to some buyers, though, either because they prefer it that way, or they would rather have the horn refinished themselves.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
The impression I got from Josh, unless I misunderstood, was that like a vintage car, they are only original once. And as with vintage cars, mechanical restoration may be necessary to keep the cars running and the horns optimally playable. However, cosmetic restoration resulting in the loss of the original patina may in all probability, lower the overall value of the instrument. Since, in my case the horn had already been stripped, whether or not the horn had already lost some value I guess is a gray area. ...

------------------------
In the realm of collectibles, 'good honest wear' is often preferred over 'refinished'.
e.g. potential buyer "that horn looks pretty ratty"
seller "That's good honest wear on a choice vintage horn, it hasn't be tinkered with to destroy originality"
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very tricky issue.

Yes, the Chippendale table in flawless condition with original finish is worth a fortune. Why? Because such is almost non-existent. Tables generally get used, and the Chippendale table that has so many chips and gouges that the top is grey weathered bare wood is definitely worth less than the one that has been restored to a new appearance.

Instruments are no different. A little wear: leave it alone. Trashed: restore it. It's not that complicated until you get to the marginal cases. Then, its a judgment call. As a historian, I prefer the conservative approach, but if it's too far gone then yes, it is a more valuable research piece if accurately restored, such as Robb's recent work for me on this 1837 Keat that was missing parts (whole first key) and badly wrinkled-up. I regret I could not keep the patina, but understanding the workings of one of the first few chromatic brass winds in the western hemisphere was far more important.

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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it strange that in the antique world, removing patina from bronze, copper, and brass practically destroys its value, but not silver. I suppose the black “patina” on silver has no aesthetic value and needs to be polished off…
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Matthew Anklan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vote goes to J. Landress Brass in NYC!
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthew Anklan wrote:
My vote goes to J. Landress Brass in NYC!

So you dont think Charlie Melk and Rich Ita know what they are talking about when it goes to restoration or preservation and value retention of instruments? I consulted both these gentleman before I decided to do this work.
_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here we see how a thread can drift sufficiently that a straight-forward answer to the original query can be interpreted as having a wholly different meaning.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uote="OldSchoolEuph"]And here we see how a thread can drift sufficiently that a straight-forward answer to the original query can be interpreted as having a wholly different meaning.[/quote]
Rich and I have talked about every level if restoration from mechanically playability, museum level preservation, to full factory restoration and authenticity to what it would be like originally from H.N White. Including original materials whenever possible.
_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthew Anklan wrote:
My vote goes to J. Landress Brass in NYC!


I believe this poster was responding to the thread title, not the discussion of preserved vs restored value and the comments attributed to Josh.

and I agree, Josh has done some excellent restoration work, and excellent repair and modification work, including for one of the leading collectors and historians.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Matthew Anklan wrote:
My vote goes to J. Landress Brass in NYC!


I believe this poster was responding to the thread title, not the discussion of preserved vs restored value and the comments attributed to Josh.

and I agree, Josh has done some excellent restoration work, and excellent repair and modification work, including for one of the leading collectors and historians.


Ah gotcha. I wasn't sure if they could do full restoration or I might have considered them. I have sent friends to them for repairs and cleaning that have lived in New York and they were pleased with the work and I have purchased from them.
_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should be receiving my cornet back from Rich Ita tomorrow. I am pretty excited about this. It has been a long 8 months.
_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
I should be receiving my cornet back from Rich Ita tomorrow. I am pretty excited about this. It has been a long 8 months.


After all of this, I am looking forward to hearing about "the finished product" (maybe a few pics as well). More importantly, if you had this to do over again, what would you do differently, if anything? I understand that your response may take a while...there is, from my limited (though be it some) experience, a "honeymoon" period regarding this matter as well.

I am an interested casual observer, not a knowledgeable critic.

Life is Short, find the Joy in it.

Mike
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'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
I should be receiving my cornet back from Rich Ita tomorrow. I am pretty excited about this. It has been a long 8 months.


After all of this, I am looking forward to hearing about "the finished product" (maybe a few pics as well). More importantly, if you had this to do over again, what would you do differently, if anything? I understand that your response may take a while...there is, from my limited (though be it some) experience, a "honeymoon" period regarding this matter as well.

I am an interested casual observer, not a knowledgeable critic.

Life is Short, find the Joy in it.

Mike


It arrived and I have been playing it for the past 3 hours. I am quite pleased with it. I'll have to try and get good pics of it. I am not great at taking pics of instruments with my phone. Total in cost wise on this horn with price of the cornet and restoration with all shipping I think I am around 1850.00. I paid 700 for the cornet, 1,000 for restoration and around 150 in total for shipping all around.




_________________
Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cornet is a 1965 H.N White King Master Model supersonic with a solid sterling silver lead pipe and factory 1st slide trigger. Has all the nickle silver slides, the 3rd dump slude and the fine tune adjustment. Goldfish bell. I searched a l9ng time for it so it could match the trumpets I had. A 1965 super 20 silversonic Symphony that's it twin and a 1966 silver flair.




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Current horns
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony
1965 H.N White King Super 20 Silversonic Master Model Cornet
Past horns
Bach 72/25 Reversed,Bach Cornet, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489,

The pics show this Cornet very well! Your collection as pictured looks great! I've done the 3+ hours playing on new /new to me/renos/restos as well! That seems to be the default, at least from my experience; much enthusiasm in the beginning like many new relationships, and maybe it doesn't dim, sometimes even intensifying with the change of seasons! It will be very interesting to hear your evaluation over time! Please update as your journey unfolds!

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
'76 & '98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorns
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
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