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Standard P5-4 picc vs. Butler/Geyer - difference?



 
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Standard P5-4 picc vs. Butler/Geyer - difference? Reply with quote

Subject line pretty much says it - what's different/better about a Butler/Geyer model?
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aspeyr1
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ability to manipulate the slides for tuning purposes with the attached ring/saddle.

The BG model also does not have a waterkey on the 3rd valve slide, the original does.

There could be others, but I’m not aware of any other differences (this is a pretty significant difference)

*edited info about the waterkey*
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, just find the best playing Picc. If you find a great P5-4, you can always add a 3rd slide ring on it. The 1st slides on the BG models really dont work very well. The slide is just so short, that when you kick out the first slide, it’s tough to pull back in. Tends to bind.

If you find a BG that’s the best, go with that. More important to get the one that blows best for you
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having the ability to move slides on a piccolo is terrific and as most know, the first valve is not going to work too well on these beasties. I play at times on a Schilke G4L and even the longer first slide on that horn is still problematic due to the inherent mechanical limitations of free play in the slide to move easily v. the length of slide which travels.

There is a solution! Take a peek at the Kanstul Bb/A/G piccolo and you'll see some more metal on the first valve slide. It's a rail system which creates an apparatus for the slide to move along that is longer than the female legs of the slide. (yes, reading a few times is necessary... ) It works a treat and is really great for fixing some problematic notes at times.

I am SO close to calling Charles at Kanstul and buying one (or two) of these setups to put on other brand piccolos! (or at least begging) (I will also be begging the original maker to forgive me, I suspect)

cheers

Andy
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
Having the ability to move slides on a piccolo is terrific and as most know, the first valve is not going to work too well on these beasties. I play at times on a Schilke G4L and even the longer first slide on that horn is still problematic due to the inherent mechanical limitations of free play in the slide to move easily v. the length of slide which travels.


Really? I play a P5-4 BG, and I have no more problem with my 1st/3rd slides than with any of my other instruments, and yes, I use them both frequently. (I do some of my daily Clarkes on picc to keep it in game shape, so to speak.)
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tubbs831
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first valve slide on my B/G actually works just fine (after pinching the saddle a bit). I have never been able to move the third valve slide unfortunately. Perhaps it is the way I hold the instrument....
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aspeyr1 wrote:
The ability to manipulate the slides for tuning purposes with the attached ring/saddle.

The BG model also does not have a waterkey on the 3rd valve slide, the original does

Aside from no hole for the 3rd slide water key there's no difference in the actual plumbing between the two? I.e. the basic playability should be the same?
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aspeyr1
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I’m aware, that is the only difference in plumbing.

I met someone, they shall remain nameless, that claims they were attaching 3rd and 1st valve slide rings/saddles to standard p5-4s a la Barbara Butler and Charlie Geyer (if you have ever played for either of these master pedagogues you know they are sticklers for intonation, among other things).

Supposedly, they were calling this the BG modification. Either way, schilke is now doing it in house. Give both a try. And please, reach out to the folks at schilke. They can tell you exactly what you are looking for. my information is more anecdotal/experiencial.
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johntpt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having the ability to extend the slides can be a great thing, especially in playing modern music or quntet arrangements that have lots of D's and C#'s.

However I do know players that prefer the feel of a standard P5-4, that something about adding rings and lapping the slides changes the feel of the horn, and not in a good way.

I agree with Andy, it's better to find a picc that plays really well. If it doesn't have the saddles-rings, the 4th slide can be set for alternate fingerings if needed (2-4 instead of 1-2-3, for example).

JU
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Ferg825
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent some time at the Schilke factory on a tour and specifically inquired about the differences between the standard model p5-4 and the BG version. In addition to the added slide saddles, the BG is in fact plumbed differently. The difference is in the 1st/3rd slides. One horn is plumbed so the slides are both male ends but one is plumbed male/female or vice versa. I don't recall off hand which one is which. If you give them a call, I'm sure they'd be happy to give you the specifics!
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above is correct- reversed tuning slide-type set up on 1st and 3rd slides on the B-G. I've had both, I've kept the regular P5-4. BTW- when going to the A side, pull the 1st and 3rd slides a bit as well and you'll be much happier with overall pitch. Also, as I learned the hard way, keep an eye on the shape/condition of the leadpipe tuning screw.
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize this is a four-year old thread. I had wondered if one could just order a first valve slide for a P5-4 from Schilke with a ring or saddle on it, and this thread would indicate the answer is No. I had thought it would be worth trying, but this thread raises more questions.

So, has anyone had a tech add a ring or saddle to the slides on a P5-4 and enjoyed success doing so? Has anyone here had Schilke do this, as indicated in one post above that they can?

Thanks for any thoughts.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riojazz wrote:
I realize this is a four-year old thread. I had wondered if one could just order a first valve slide for a P5-4 from Schilke with a ring or saddle on it, and this thread would indicate the answer is No. I had thought it would be worth trying, but this thread raises more questions.

So, has anyone had a tech add a ring or saddle to the slides on a P5-4 and enjoyed success doing so? Has anyone here had Schilke do this, as indicated in one post above that they can?

Thanks for any thoughts.


It's a small detail, but the 1st/3rd slides on the BG models have differences in their slides compared to the standard versions. There's probably a proper name for this that maybe someone else can provide, but the BG models have the spots where inner and outer tubing meet on the slides in offset points on the upper and lower sides of the slides, whereas the standard P5-4s have them vertically aligned. I believe this change is done to make it easier to move the slides.

So, Schilke would probably say the slides are different, and refuse on that basis. A tech could probably solder rings/saddles on for you, but I suspect it wouldn't work as well as the ones that are designed for this function.
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much. That makes perfect sense.

Just to make sure of what, if any, options are available, I have written to Schilke to ask them about this.
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Nathan.Sobieralski
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riojazz wrote:
I realize this is a four-year old thread. I had wondered if one could just order a first valve slide for a P5-4 from Schilke with a ring or saddle on it, and this thread would indicate the answer is No. I had thought it would be worth trying, but this thread raises more questions.

So, has anyone had a tech add a ring or saddle to the slides on a P5-4 and enjoyed success doing so? Has anyone here had Schilke do this, as indicated in one post above that they can?

Thanks for any thoughts.


I have a fairly old P5-4, late 70s I think. I had a ring added to the third valve slide, as well as having the top tubing on that slide reversed. The results are not very good. There is simply too much play in the tubing for it to work well, though thicker grease helps a bit. Perhaps the newer horns have tighter tolerances? I don't know.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More than one person mentioned Spacefiller in a TH thread this summer, stating that it forms a barrier, filling in the tiny micro-fissures of the slides. I had become convinced that my own variants of lubricants were ideal, but I bought some Spacefiller from Dillon's Music, anyway, and have been really surprised at how well this stuff works. Initially when applied, it's pretty gooey, but as I cut it with some valve oil and work each slide, I can tell that it will outperform anything I've used prior. It particularly does well with slides where the geometry of hand position/horn angle/finger manipulation is problematic, so I'm wondering how it might work for those with these piccolo saddles/rings on 1st/3rd slides.
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
More than one person mentioned Spacefiller ...

Would that be this https://www.dillonmusic.com/spacefiller-ultimate-i-for-pistons-and-rotors/

or this https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-oil-spacefiller-ts/

The Piston and Rotor one also mentions trombone slides and would appear to be thinner if usable for rotors.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riojazz wrote:
dstpt wrote:
More than one person mentioned Spacefiller ...

Would that be this https://www.dillonmusic.com/spacefiller-ultimate-i-for-pistons-and-rotors/

or this https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-oil-spacefiller-ts/

The Piston and Rotor one also mentions trombone slides and would appear to be thinner if usable for rotors.

The latter...

https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-oil-spacefiller-ts/

It is thick and goes on very gooey, but it works! I personally prefer any lubricant to provide an immediate result of the intended use, but you have to work with this stuff. You have to exercise a little patience and cut it with some valve oil, but it does not take long to get the slide "going" after that. In some cases, it has taken a little more valve oil than a single few drops, but if you work it a little bit (while watching TV), the slide will start to glide like there's nothing there...and you won't hear any scratching of metal against metal, either. It will be like a top-notch trombone soloist's slide...super glide-y. AND it stays like that for considerable time. As mentioned I didn't try this until about a couple of months ago, and for those slides where I've applied it, it hasn't needed a secondary application. I'm thinking I will be able to go from one cleaning and lube to the next without having to re-lube in between. I got five bottles from Dillon's, since it was so cheap. Oh, here's a big thing: The labeling on the containers has easily rubbed off onto my fingers, so I put tape around it to stop that. The ones I got could have been sitting on a warehouse shelf for some time; maybe the newer ones won't do that.

Another thing I do is put a few drops toward the opening of the slide and move it around with a toothpick to maximize coverage and minimize using too much.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
Riojazz wrote:
dstpt wrote:
More than one person mentioned Spacefiller ...

Would that be this https://www.dillonmusic.com/spacefiller-ultimate-i-for-pistons-and-rotors/

or this https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-oil-spacefiller-ts/

The Piston and Rotor one also mentions trombone slides and would appear to be thinner if usable for rotors.

The latter...

https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-oil-spacefiller-ts/

It is thick and goes on very gooey, but it works! I personally prefer any lubricant to provide an immediate result of the intended use, but you have to work with this stuff. You have to exercise a little patience and cut it with some valve oil, but it does not take long to get the slide "going" after that. In some cases, it has taken a little more valve oil than a single few drops, but if you work it a little bit (while watching TV), the slide will start to glide like there's nothing there...and you won't hear any scratching of metal against metal, either. It will be like a top-notch trombone soloist's slide...super glide-y. AND it stays like that for considerable time. As mentioned I didn't try this until about a couple of months ago, and for those slides where I've applied it, it hasn't needed a secondary application. I'm thinking I will be able to go from one cleaning and lube to the next without having to re-lube in between. I got five bottles from Dillon's, since it was so cheap. Oh, here's a big thing: The labeling on the containers has easily rubbed off onto my fingers, so I put tape around it to stop that. The ones I got could have been sitting on a warehouse shelf for some time; maybe the newer ones won't do that.

Another thing I do is put a few drops toward the opening of the slide and move it around with a toothpick to maximize coverage and minimize using too much.

I felt I should clarify further how I apply Spacefiller. I put a little bit around the end of the slide and then spread it thinly down the slide about an inch or so using a toothpick. Maybe it would be ideal to cover the entire slide, but it seems to spread well down the slide once I insert each slide leg all the way. And yes, I initially insert one leg of each slide at a time and spin the slide as much as I can to help spread coverage of the lubricant. This process generally means less excess oozing out at the end once a leg is all the way in, which means preserving as much as possible. I find it most difficult spinning the slide around with the top 3rd slide, but I can spin the other slide legs well over 180 degrees. Maybe the Bach red stuff, Yamaha, and Schilke slide greases would work similarly...I dunno. I had moved over to using other, non-trumpet products several years ago, Super Lube, but I've been using the thinner viscosity versions. Maybe their thicker versions would work similarly to Spacefiller.

My biggest pet peeve through the years has been pulling a horn out of the case where a slide has extended inside the case and picked up "case fur" and been stripped of some of the lubricant after getting my slides behaving perfectly like I prefer. For awhile I was placing cloths, or a single spread cloth, to hold the 1st and 3rds slides in place inside the case. I finally started using two basic hairbands finger-looped together, which ends up being the perfect length to reach from 1st to 3rd slide, and they don't come undone. For a Schilke piccolo, you may only need a single hairband. Anyway, they are super cheap for a bag and consistently do this job. And did I mention that they are very inexpensive? I mean, you can spend $10+ on a fancy Yamaha slide holder for each horn you own, or you could buy a package of hairbands for about $5, which you could use on several horns, right?
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