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C Trumpet design question



 
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romajore
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:47 pm    Post subject: C Trumpet design question Reply with quote

I am only asking this out of curiosity. How come C trumpets are designed w/ longer bells and shorter “bodies” as opposed to proportionally shrunk down versions of Bb trumpets. I know there are a few of the latter like the AR Resonance Classica and vintage Conn Glantz model, but they are few and far between. Is it just projection in symphony halls or something.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything effects something.

If you look at Eb trumpets, most are not the tighter wrap style, they're a longer bell style or, more often something along the lines of the E3L style.

How much of the tubing is in the leadpipe vs after the valve block matter. Where the braces are placed matters, etc.

What all of these DO, I can't say, because I'm just a guy and not a trumpet designer. But, I'd imagine there is a reason - likely many - for the current common format of the C trumpet.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how the 'holding position' (left & right hands) affects a player's choice.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Everything effects something.


This.

You don't want to make the bell shorter, because of sound and tuning. You don't want to make the pipe shorter, because of the tuning. There's not a whole lot you can do with the valves. But the whole thing needs to be shorter.

'So now the designers have to go to work and decide what trade-offs they will make.


Last edited by Tom LeCompte on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:
You don't want to make the pipe shorter, because of the tuning.


Most traditional C trumpets have very little pull on the tuning slide. I had a Bach with a reversed leadpipe (a rare model) that gave me more, but it was nowhere near what a Bb has. If you don't play in tune, you're in trouble on C trumpet.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a good question. There are short-bell models for piccolo and for D/Eb. There's a yamaha 6610 selling nearby and I've been wondering if a lighter, short-bell D/Eb would be worth it. Why doesn't such a thing exist for C?

There are also (probably kind of weird) C cornets and pocket trumpets, so a different C design is possible.

I would imagine projection would change a lot with a different bell, and since Cs tend to be orchestra instruments blending is probably even more important.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: C Trumpet design question Reply with quote

romajore wrote:
I am only asking this out of curiosity. How come C trumpets are designed w/ longer bells and shorter “bodies” as opposed to proportionally shrunk down versions of Bb trumpets. I know there are a few of the latter like the AR Resonance Classica and vintage Conn Glantz model, but they are few and far between. Is it just projection in symphony halls or something.

I was told that the modern C is largely a cut-down Bb. And that this is why the modern C has all the additional tuning quirks. I was also told that indeed there were a few makers who produced C's that were proportionally shrunk and that these horns don't have all the extra tuning quirks.
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was told that the modern C is largely a cut-down Bb. And that this is why the modern C has all the additional tuning quirks. I was also told that indeed there were a few makers who produced C's that were proportionally shrunk and that these horns don't have all the extra tuning quirks.


As I was reading this thread, I sort of started wondering whether some design choices may be for manufacturability reasons, such as reusing tooling, mandrels, jigs, that sort of stuff.
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Stradbrother
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I was reading this I was thinking back to some of my favorite C horns, the classic getzen horns.

The Getzen Capri C horn looked like a Getzen Capri Bb cut down to C.

However, the Eterna C was a totally different animal. The tuning slide barely went past the valve block, and the horn was balanced in a very unique way, almost like a long bell Eb.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuehnl Hoyer of Germany claim that their proportionally shrunk C-trumpet "Classicum" solves many problems common C trompets are supposed to have. I cannot comment on this, not having played this model before.

https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/en/produkt/c-trumpet-classicum-c-malte-burba/

However, all rotary style c-trumpets that I am aware of are indeed proportionally shrunk rather than cut down to C from the Bb shape.

When it is all said and done though, in my experience it is rather the right combination of horn and mouthpiece (don't overlook the mouthpiece backbore!) that has the biggest influence on intonation and response.

If anyone has experience with the Kuehnl Hoyer, please share!
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many good points, above, but to add to the historical side of the question: in our era of the post-Chicago Symphony Bach C Trumpets set, what you observe about the ‘longer’ bell section and shorter set of tubing before the valves has been the overwhelming trend.

However, earlier French and Belgian designs as well as rotary horns in C were proportionally smaller than a Bb design. Oftentimes, these horns were also found in D/C combination. The Thibouville-Lamy D/C four-valve trumpet Roger Voisin played as well as the Tottlephone ML/238 horn Armando Ghitalla would later play in the Boston Symphony Orchestra represent an orchestral C trumpet sound palate past the mid-20th century that looks back toward these earlier Cs. Those kind of variations in gear and approach practically died out following the 229 Bach Strad sound represented on those excellently-recorded Chicago Symphony recordings changed tastes in the orchestral trumpet sound…while also impacting instrument design and limiting variation and diversity of sound between principal players and orchestra sections.

Again, as said above, the design implications of bell and leadpipe proportions couldn’t be more significant. As generations of orchestral players had a certain sound in mind and approach engrained, trumpet designs met and reflected these goals. Blackburn made a “compact” C at one point, and while early Monette C trumpets (from serial number 001) were ‘long bell’ designs, the ergonomics of more recent designs have brought the bell closer to the player’s ears, with valve sections also sitting closer to the center of the horn. It’s all about application and approach - finding the design which best complements the musical goals of the player.

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Didymus
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: C Trumpet design question Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
romajore wrote:
I am only asking this out of curiosity. How come C trumpets are designed w/ longer bells and shorter “bodies” as opposed to proportionally shrunk down versions of Bb trumpets. I know there are a few of the latter like the AR Resonance Classica and vintage Conn Glantz model, but they are few and far between. Is it just projection in symphony halls or something.

I was told that the modern C is largely a cut-down Bb. And that this is why the modern C has all the additional tuning quirks. I was also told that indeed there were a few makers who produced C's that were proportionally shrunk and that these horns don't have all the extra tuning quirks.


The Blessing 152/1520 might be the exception. I own one, bought for $400 in very good condition. I would only recommend it to a person who just wants a "proportional" C trumpet for the sake of having a "proportional" C trumpet collecting dust in the closet most of the time. It is playable, but it plays more like a small trumpet (think short-bell Eb/D's, G's and F's) than a long-bell C trumpet. It has all the extra tuning quirks of a C trumpet plus a few more.
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: C Trumpet design question Reply with quote

Didymus wrote:
cheiden wrote:
romajore wrote:
I am only asking this out of curiosity. How come C trumpets are designed w/ longer bells and shorter “bodies” as opposed to proportionally shrunk down versions of Bb trumpets. I know there are a few of the latter like the AR Resonance Classica and vintage Conn Glantz model, but they are few and far between. Is it just projection in symphony halls or something.

I was told that the modern C is largely a cut-down Bb. And that this is why the modern C has all the additional tuning quirks. I was also told that indeed there were a few makers who produced C's that were proportionally shrunk and that these horns don't have all the extra tuning quirks.


The Blessing 152/1520 might be the exception. I own one, bought for $400 in very good condition. I would only recommend it to a person who just wants a "proportional" C trumpet for the sake of having a "proportional" C trumpet collecting dust in the closet most of the time. It is playable, but it plays more like a small trumpet (think short-bell Eb/D's, G's and F's) than a long-bell C trumpet. It has all the extra tuning quirks of a C trumpet plus a few more.


Yes, the Blessing "short" C trumpet... Not the best horn out there
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen and worked on a few of the later Yamaha C's that have the long lead pipe and intricate inner/outer slide combo. That's done to lengthen the pipe, which usually stabilizes and improves pitch.

I've known this about Bb trumpets for a long time; look at the pitch problems with Blessing trumpets, they take off above the staff, resulting in a sharp "G".
Really hard to deal with that as a player. They also have a very short pipe -shorter than Bach.

The poster who wrote about Getzen C's, I had one from the 60's in the shop before the pandemic. That was a really good horn, they had worked out the problems and it played very well in tune.
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RL
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example:

https://genevabandroom.co.uk/product/c-trumpet-symphony/

I'm curious how it plays.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blackburn makes a short model C. Played a colleague’s - they are fantastic.

https://www.pickettblackburn.com/blackburn-c-trumpets-c-161_185/blackburn-short-model-c-trumpet-p-1255.html
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The C that I build is a short bell design.
In my experience, the longer leadpipe allows for better pitch, especially on the 5th partial, which is notoriously flat on most normal C trumpets.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://dqscustomshop.com/Custom_Trumpets/del-quadro-custom-c-trumpet/

https://www.arresonance.com/product-page/classica-trumpet-bb-or-c

https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/produkt/c-trompete-classicum-c-malte-burba/

https://www.sonic.de/index.php?eID=dumpFile&t=f&f=5837&token=dbcc6453ed426b8ebfcfb4ac80912b07653cb3b4 (in German, sorry)

https://www.thomann.de/de/carol_brass_ccr_7770r_rsm_c_s.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7OnZwoOq-gIVSgOLCh1A2AbdEAYYASABEgIul_D_BwE
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I recall that Ivan Hunter (owner of Jaeger Brass) wrote about the development of his C trumpet, years ago. In pursuing the best playing horn he ended up with a "balanced" design (longer leadpipe, shorter bell, valves closer to the bell rim). It played better in tune, but feedback from testers was that it "didn't sound like a Bach."

In pursuit of the sound his testers wanted, he ended up with a traditional design -- traditional enough that he offered Bach C trumpet bells as an option.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
I believe I recall that Ivan Hunter (owner of Jaeger Brass) wrote about the development of his C trumpet, years ago. In pursuing the best playing horn he ended up with a "balanced" design (longer leadpipe, shorter bell, valves closer to the bell rim). It played better in tune, but feedback from testers was that it "didn't sound like a Bach."

In pursuit of the sound his testers wanted, he ended up with a traditional design -- traditional enough that he offered Bach C trumpet bells as an option.

This reminded me that the relatively rare Benge C I have wasn't made for long because (I'm told) Benge concluded that players favored the Bach sound.
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