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To paint or not to paint....


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Dufcapers
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Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:15 am    Post subject: To paint or not to paint.... Reply with quote

That is the question.

But seriously, last year I upgraded my horn and bought a nice Harrelson. I kept my Yammy 6310z as a back-up and i bring it on stage every gig for those "just in case" instances when, gods forbid, I might need a second horn at the ready. I play solely in a pop/dance band.

I long ago removed the lacquer from the Yammy, but I'm wondering about painting it for a bit of flash on stage. Either black with some artistic red flames down the bell, or an all over red. Obviously the how is easy enough - seal off holes, tape off slides, spray paint with a brass specialty paint, then seal. No problem.

My question is, has anyone done this with good results? I know there are a couple of professionals on the market doing this (Juleez comes to mind), but I'm also not looking to spend $1000+ on my back-up. So DIY is the route I'm willing to foot the bill on.

Thoughts? Experiences?
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you are trying to keep costs down.

I would still want to try it on a desperately cheap horn before I tried it on a pro horn, making sure the cheapo didn't play any worse after the paint job.
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Dufcapers
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not a bad plan. I have a couple of cheapo's kicking around the house that I could do first. Good idea!
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it sounds like a really fun project. Let us know how it turns out - with pics if you can. And good luck!!
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Trumpets: 18043B, 18037 SterlingSilver+, 18043*, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonathanM wrote:
I think it sounds like a really fun project. Let us know how it turns out - with pics if you can. And good luck!!


I will be an enthusiastic 2nd to JM's posit!

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About 10 years ago, I got the "bright idea" to paint an Olds Ambassador in a red, white, and blue stars and stripes pattern. I figured finger nail polish would come in bright colors, and be really tough. I play in a brass band ( 3rd stand back then, Eb now) that played several patriotic concerts around July 4th. I even finished a set of mutes I had laying around in patriotic colors.

Anyway, my point here is that a full bottle of nail polish only covers about a square inch or so, if you want strong colors on your horn. I came out looking pretty good, but I spent about $70 or $80 on nail polish. I kept making trips all day long buying a few bottles of polish at a time. Of course the clerks at our small town Walmart were curious, so I told them what I was up to. They still thought I was strange.

While it does make a tough finish, I think there are more efficient ways to paint a trumpet.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes a big difference what KIND of paint you use. Choose poorly and it looks like garbage.

I don't have any special insight into what is correct and not, because I've never had any desire to do this. But, I have seen (and once, accidently purchased) a horn that was painted by some amateur and looked, felt, smelled poor.

I recall Tony Scodwell - who is a trumpet builder and posts on here from time to time - mentioned something about making a blue flugel for Doc once. Might be worth checking into that.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.

If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…

Sorry, couldn’t resist.
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Dufcapers
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jengstrom wrote:
Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.

If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…

Sorry, couldn’t resist.


I'm sorry you've never done the work to find the facts on this. Fact of the matter is, finish makes little to no difference in tonal color of the instrument. Harrelson has done extensive studies using spectral analysis and blind testing to confirm that any sound difference you ever hear is all in the perception of the player thinking what it *should* sound like and that player manipulating their sound accordingly. i.e. If you *think* it should sound darker, you play so it sounds darker. Dark and Bright not being his favorite terms for the tonal color either, as they're too vague.

Anyway, I digress. Likely as not, unless I'm putting POUNDS of paint on this horn it won't sound any different. Unless i get paint in the valves...that's a whole other post though.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dufcapers wrote:
jengstrom wrote:
Is this thread for real? If so, I apologize for the apparent snark, but it’s been talked about many times how the lacquer finishes of old dampened sound (newer lacquer, not so much). That’s why Schilkes were never lacquered. It seems to me that paint would be worse because it would likely be thicker.

If I’m wrong, then perhaps a 4” brush and some self-leveling latex…

Sorry, couldn’t resist.


I'm sorry you've never done the work to find the facts on this. Fact of the matter is, finish makes little to no difference in tonal color of the instrument. Harrelson has done extensive studies using spectral analysis and blind testing to confirm that any sound difference you ever hear is all in the perception of the player thinking what it *should* sound like and that player manipulating their sound accordingly. i.e. If you *think* it should sound darker, you play so it sounds darker. Dark and Bright not being his favorite terms for the tonal color either, as they're too vague.

Anyway, I digress. Likely as not, unless I'm putting POUNDS of paint on this horn it won't sound any different. Unless i get paint in the valves...that's a whole other post though.


That's actually not true.

Schilke did the research decades ago, using electronic stimulation of the air column rather than a play-tester (just to remove human factors) and electronic measurement of the spectrum. He demonstrated clearly that the hardness, thickness and weight of finishes do impact the tonal spectrum. (ditto for bell material itself)

Yes, the effect at the player's ear is more pronounced (leak-back travels through the horn instead of projecting from the reflection through air alone) than that at the business end of the bell, but there is an effect there too.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey - it's your trumpet. If you are not concerned about resale valve - have at it.

But before you start spraying paint - you might consider a brass patina option followed by wax. There are several recipes on line and some pre-made formulas available. If you don't like the results, you could then just degrease and paint.

Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Hey - it's your trumpet. If you are not concerned about resale valve - have at it.
...........
Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue.


That reminded me of something I had done back in my *brief* stint in really small town band directing back about 1975. When one of my students forgot their cornet, in the interest of expediance, I would just hand them my horn off the stand, which was usually a drop dead gorgeous Martin Magna with nickel slides and gold brass Shepherd's crook bell. I began to notice my first chair cornet was forgetting her Bundy with startling regularity.

The next time I was in a larger town, I found a pretty nice mechanical condition Olds Abassador trumpet for about $15. The school colors were orange and white, so I spray painted it orange and white, and declared it the "Spirit Trumpet", and anyone forgetting their cornet would play it.

Memories improved drastically!
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:

Disclaimer - I was at the cutting edge back in 1962 when I spray painted my Conn Director cornet blue.


When I was in college in the early 70s, a local music store gave me a new horn to try and show for a while at classes, football/basketball games and my gigs. It was a Holton MF Horn (the model designation? I don't remember...it was the early 70s...) The horn was finished in a brilliant green lacquer that I assumed was factory since it was a new horn. It was really fun to play and it was quite the attention getter. I don't think that the finish impacted the sound at all, but I really didn't have a comparison traditionally finished similar horn to compare.

I once considered having one of my silver plated trumpets custom lacquered in Mardi Gras colors, Green, Gold and Purple when I lived in New Orleans for street gigs. Those were (post divorce) lean days, so I guess that I never figured out how to fund it. Would have been fun though!

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike
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'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
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onlyson
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a company back in the 90's called L.A Sax. It was located in a Chicago suburb near my home and the shop manager was an acquaintance. He set up our band with a few painted horns. As I recall they used a type of automotive paint and process. They looked awesome and got a lot of attention. I had a pocket trumpet done in purple metalflake (like a Dodge Duster), and a nickel plated cornet done in a kind of candy cane swirl. Very cool. Later I had an Olds Ambassador done in Candy Apple Red.

My impression is that it does deaden the sound profile. Mostly the feedback you get behind the horn. With the smaller pocket and cornet it didn't matter much because the bells are still pretty close to your ears, but with the full size trumpet it was awful.

Unfortunately those horns were stolen. I do now have a Carol pocket trumpet in black lacquer. And it does seem a bit less open than the standard lacquered version it replaced. Painted horns will get a lot of attention, but are kind of a drag to play. If I recall, Yamaha made a black lacquer version of the Shew horn. I think it was called the Phoenix. Maybe you could find one of those. Good luck.
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Quadstriker
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyson wrote:
There was a company back in the 90's called L.A Sax.


That's the name I was trying to come up with. I remember seeing their ads in industry magazines.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:56 am    Post subject: Trumpets to be painted Reply with quote

Crazy Finn has a good memory. Indeed I did a special flugelhorn for Doc Severinsen after he asked if I could make him a blue horn with gold trim. Having tried all my industry friends to see if they could shoot colored lacquer, the best response I got was from Zig Kanstul..."It will #@*& up my spray guns.

At that time only the Orient was doing colored lacquer so as I had restored cars for many years I thought why not try automotive lacquer which is available in standard automotive colors for most of the cars out there in spray bombs. Off to Pep Boys I go and found a blue which I thought Doc might like. It was a GM color for Chevy Suburbans and I "road tested" it on a couple of scrap bells laying around. After cleaning the surface with lacquer thinner I applied the color. So far so good and I dried the paint with a heat gun. To test the durability I lightly scratched the surface with my fingernail and found out the paint wasn't going to last long. I set the test bells aside and sort of put the project aside for the time being. A week later I tried the same scratch test and found the paint to be quite durable now. It must have needed the time to fully cure so now I started on the flugelhorn.

Cleaning all the surfaces to be blue with lacquer thinner and masking any areas off not to be painted and apply the blue lacquer in thin coats evenly. The inside of the bell and top and bottom caps plus other small areas will have gold lacquer applied which I have used before. It is the old style instrument lacquer I get from Allied Supply. After a week of curing I was ready to present the horn to Doc prior to a concert with the Detroit Symphony where he had a couple pieces to play on flugel.

Now you can't tell Doc Severinsen that the color chosen for his horn was Chevy Suburban Blue. I came up with a name I knew he'd go for...Bugatti Blue. He enjoyed the horn for a very short time before he re-signed a deal with Getzen again and he said he felt he had to return my horns. He was playing my Bb trumpet also at the time and he didn't want to jeopardize his new contract. He should've kept the horns as that deal fell apart in six months.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, as always, it's a pleasure to read what you have to say. Thanks very much for contributing.
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Trumpets: 18043B, 18037 SterlingSilver+, 18043*, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
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Dufcapers
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all of those with comments about resale value, and the think-before-you-paint worries....

The ease of it already being raw brass, and raw brass that I did myself, is that if I don't like the paint, or do want to sell it - I just get happy with the green scrubby and bye-bye-bye goes the paint. I'm really not all that worried about resale value to begin with, but the fact that spray paint would come off easier than the lacquer did makes it a moot point entirely.
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Dufcapers
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Trumpets to be painted Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
Crazy Finn has a good memory. Indeed I did a special flugelhorn for Doc Severinsen after he asked if I could make him a blue horn with gold trim. Having tried all my industry friends to see if they could shoot colored lacquer, the best response I got was from Zig Kanstul..."It will #@*& up my spray guns.

At that time only the Orient was doing colored lacquer so as I had restored cars for many years I thought why not try automotive lacquer which is available in standard automotive colors for most of the cars out there in spray bombs. Off to Pep Boys I go and found a blue which I thought Doc might like. It was a GM color for Chevy Suburbans and I "road tested" it on a couple of scrap bells laying around. After cleaning the surface with lacquer thinner I applied the color. So far so good and I dried the paint with a heat gun. To test the durability I lightly scratched the surface with my fingernail and found out the paint wasn't going to last long. I set the test bells aside and sort of put the project aside for the time being. A week later I tried the same scratch test and found the paint to be quite durable now. It must have needed the time to fully cure so now I started on the flugelhorn.

Cleaning all the surfaces to be blue with lacquer thinner and masking any areas off not to be painted and apply the blue lacquer in thin coats evenly. The inside of the bell and top and bottom caps plus other small areas will have gold lacquer applied which I have used before. It is the old style instrument lacquer I get from Allied Supply. After a week of curing I was ready to present the horn to Doc prior to a concert with the Detroit Symphony where he had a couple pieces to play on flugel.

Now you can't tell Doc Severinsen that the color chosen for his horn was Chevy Suburban Blue. I came up with a name I knew he'd go for...Bugatti Blue. He enjoyed the horn for a very short time before he re-signed a deal with Getzen again and he said he felt he had to return my horns. He was playing my Bb trumpet also at the time and he didn't want to jeopardize his new contract. He should've kept the horns as that deal fell apart in six months.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


Pep boys huh.... Process pretty similar to a normal spray? Keep the area clean, tape/protect like you said the areas you don't want colored, and then spray multiple thin coats? That Mazda red is a beaut...
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find a tape designed for automotive paint that provides clean lines. Masking tape might do just fine but why not avoid cleaning up fuzzy lines.
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