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mheffernen5
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Iowa (2nd largest city of IA is CR)
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 Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Is Zeus better than Bach or Yamaha? Can someone give me advice? A Zeus fan wrote me about them. They are nice and cheaper but I am kind of skeptical because I have heard nothing. |
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jamesfrmphilly
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: the north philadelphia ghetto
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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if you will do a search i think you will find a wealth of comment on ZeuS.
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1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V |
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trumpetmike
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 11315
Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: |
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The people who sell ZeuS instruments will tell you that they are the greatest instruments currently available (frequently).
Those of us who have played a number of instruments (and have no reason for recommending one make over another) will probably give you a more realistic opinion.
I have played a ZeuS and found it acceptable. Nothing special, but a reasonable trumpet.
I don't rank them as high as the Bach Strad or the Yamaha Xeno, but that is just one person's opinion. For me, it was not a better instrument than these.
As with all instruments, however, different people respond to different instruments in different ways. Try them out (if you can), see what you think of them.
[edit due to spelling]
[ This Message was edited by: trumpetmike on 2004-03-30 10:32 ] |
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E.D.Lewis
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 300
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| you'll never know until you try them for yourself. |
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Zeusfan
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Trumpet question to trumpetmike. It amazes me how frustrated that I become reading these forums sometimes. Where do you play? What do you look for in a horn? Are you a professional player or do you just get called at Easter? How can you think that a Bach 37 plays better than Zeus. On Zeus the craftmenship is much better, the intonation is better, the blow is better, and you don't look like you're playing the same horn that you got when you were a freshman in high school.
The bottom line is that I have played hundreds of Bach's and many Yamaha's before and my only conclusion is that players that do not want to switch to Zeus from their horns now is only because they are familiar with it's flaws and don't want to change.
I played a vintage Bach 37 all through middle and high school. I thought that horn rocked until I started playing different horns. I had compensated for the faults in my horn so long that I thought that was the way trumpet was supposed to play. Most any player can tell a beginner horn from a professional horn. But, it takes a professional to really know a horn's flaws. Trumpetmike, I hope you have a bio to back your comments.
_________________
Zeus dealer
Capouser@aol.com
Zeus Olympus
Zeus Guarnerius Bb
Zeus Guarnerius C
2 antique Bach 37's that sit at the house
"If you are still talking about what you did yesterday, you didn't do jack today" |
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fuzzyjon79
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 3014
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:25 am Post subject: |
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On 2004-03-30 10:21, Zeusfan wrote:
Trumpet question to trumpetmike. It amazes me how frustrated that I become reading these forums sometimes. Where do you play? What do you look for in a horn? Are you a professional player or do you just get called at Easter? How can you think that a Bach 37 plays better than Zeus. On Zeus the craftmenship is much better, the intonation is better, the blow is better, and you don't look like you're playing the same horn that you got when you were a freshman in high school.
The bottom line is that I have played hundreds of Bach's and many Yamaha's before and my only conclusion is that players that do not want to switch to Zeus from their horns now is only because they are familiar with it's flaws and don't want to change.
I played a vintage Bach 37 all through middle and high school. I thought that horn rocked until I started playing different horns. I had compensated for the faults in my horn so long that I thought that was the way trumpet was supposed to play. Most any player can tell a beginner horn from a professional horn. But, it takes a professional to really know a horn's flaws. Trumpetmike, I hope you have a bio to back your comments.
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It's all about personal taste and what you like... some people love the Zeus.. some people like it... some people don't like it... some people think it's terrible... I have never played one, so I have no opinion... However... I would like to play one, to see how they play, but until then.. I won't say anything at all.. positive or negative... If trumpetmike thinks the Zeus is OK, then that is his taste... if you think the Zeus is wonderful, that's your taste... but don't give us this "If you don't play Zeus, you're playing garbage" lecture.... it gets old.
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"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!" |
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alwyswinn
Regular Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
Posts: 82
Location: Espanola, NM
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| amen I saw this whole round of Zeus rules Zeus sucks coming again when he asked the question must it be done again. The search feature will find numerous threads just like this one I found em. |
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trumpetmike
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 11315
Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Zeusfan - OK, bio time
Graduated with a degree in music, specialising in performance.
I played professionally when I came out of university, mainly with Orchestra D'Amici (2nd trumpet), Wessex Brass Ensemble (3rd trumpet) and a number of quintets.
I currently spend my days teaching (ranging from beginner to degree level players) and my evenings/weekends performing. I am a member of Surrey Brass ( http://www.surreybrass.co.uk if you want to know more about us), specialising in piccolo trumpet playing. I play in a number of local pro orchestras and am first call dep for a number of others. I run my own trumpet ensemble. I am also in demand as a soloist and recital performer in the area.
Happy now??
My final comment was that this person should try ZeuS instruments – for me they are not the instrument of choice, but I don’t say that people should stay away from them, far from it – I encourage them to try these instruments out!
Next time you feel like making a post personal, please read all of the post that you are attacking.
Out of interest, any chance of a bio in return? |
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AverageJoe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Zeusfan --
WARNING -- the emotional and personal nature of your response is EXACTLY how Alex got banned from this site. Trumpetmike is expressing his opinion, and he did not berate the product you sell. He has tried the Zeus instrument, and he likes the Bach and Yamaha product better. Tough break for Zeus, but crying about it won't change his mind, and it certainly won't help your cause.
Now for my own .02 on the Zeus:
I have tried several Zeus horns (including the new Olympus), as there is a dealer near me. The Bb's Guarnerius is a good value for the money, but I still like my Bach better. On the other hand, the Zeus C is a REALLY fine instrument -- I'll even call it special... in many respects, it outplays my Bach C at a substantially lower cost...easy high register, big, broad sound (with warmth and personality), great intonation, secure slots and quick response. What more can you ask for?
Paul Poovey |
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_Old_mod_account
TH Moderator Group
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 887
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Some of you may have noticed that this thread took a little "sabbatical." This happened because a couple of the moderators were concerned that this thread was taking was taking the same direction so many ZeuS threads have taken in the past. After discussing the matter, we've decided to move the unedited thread back into open forum.
HOWEVER: Please keep in mind that the expectation is that members of the TH community will treat each other with courtesy and respect, especially when there's disagreement.
Thanks,
The Moderators
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jophst
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2003
Posts: 3139
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Zeusfan, my Bachs play better than all your Zeus instruments without question!!
... HAHA ...
see how that feels? You should realize Zach that most of us here are truly happy with our equipment and have no desire to explore a newly designed instrument. You also can't assume that yours just plays better than ours. Is that really factual .. or an opinion? Have you played any of our instruments for comparison?
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Bb - Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS
Picc - Yamaha 9830 w/PVA
Flugel - Yamaha Shew 6310Z
Laskey's 68MD,68C,PIC,68F,68DB |
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WaxHaX0rS
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 524
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| It is unrealistic to think one horn is the perfect horn for everybody, so lay off. |
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veldkamp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 668
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Can someone tell me what the Zeus has in common with the Bach Mt.Vernon. Especially with the old style Mt.Vernon which Alex claimes that the Zeus is based upon. I never played the Zeus but I played enough bad Mt.Vernon copies so it's not clear to me how Alex managed to crack the Mt.Vernon code....
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mheffernen5
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 637
Location: Iowa (2nd largest city of IA is CR)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess truthfully I am just a bit worried because Iowa has no ZeuS dealers near Cedar Rapids (2nd largest city to Des Moines). |
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Zeusfan
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ya'll are so funny to listen to. You should probably read some of the advice you persist on giving me. I haven't once said that your horns are garbage. As a matter of fact I have praised heavily some models of your horns. Check my post and you will see that I am very fair. You become so easily offended. I will apologize for lashing out at Mike this morning it had been a long weekend. By the way Mike, thanks for the bio. Now I respect your opinion because I have a reason to. To answer your question. I am the prinicpal player of the Alabama Wind Ensemble, I play with the Tuscaloosa Symphony, I play lead with the Alabama Jazz Ensemble and chamber jazz, and I study with John McElroy (who taught Wynton Marsalis). Not as flashy as your bio but I put my horn down for 5 years and this is my freshman year.
I think one reason I prefer the Zeus over Bach is because it is extremely versatile. I can play with the symphony then walk in a play the same horn with power for lead work. I can't pop double C's on a Bach 37.
Also, it's spring break and I have nothing better to do than to work you guys up.
Have fun posting!
_________________
Zeus dealer
Capouser@aol.com
Zeus Olympus
Zeus Guarnerius Bb
Zeus Guarnerius C
2 antique Bach 37's that sit at the house
"If you are still talking about what you did yesterday, you didn't do jack today" |
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tom turner
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 6648
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
On 2004-03-30 17:02, veldkamp wrote:
Can someone tell me what the Zeus has in common with the Bach Mt.Vernon. Especially with the old style Mt.Vernon which Alex claimes that the Zeus is based upon. I never played the Zeus but I played enough bad Mt.Vernon copies so it's not clear to me how Alex managed to crack the Mt.Vernon code....
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Hi,
I too have played some really bad Mt. Vernons, especially the early ones. Here are the facts about the Zeus:
1. Re-tooling is prohibitively expensive. The Zeus is made by Kanstul for Zachary Music from existing tooling Kanstul already had, so it's basically a version of a Kanstul trumpet.
2. Alex claims there was an agreement not to disclose the "secret factory." Jack Kanstul posted on the TM site that this is not true. The secret factory was created to get more "buzz" as well as disguise the details of the manufacturer of the horn so that people like myself would not be able to expose the falsehoods of the claims on his website.
3. The Zachary website claims his "1953" Mt. Vernon was used to create the original Zeus horn. There are several falsehoods in this entire claim:
--First, the horn is NOT a 1953 model. The photo of his horn on his website clearly shows the serial number 14375. The horn is a 1955 model. This has been pointed out to him but he chooses not to correct the claim.
--Second, the '53-'55 Mt. Vernons used the ORIGINAL wrap that was completely discarded in 1956 to go to the "taller" wrap used up to, and including today. The Zeus uses the NEW, post-55 wrap. Busted again!
At the Atlanta Zeus horn test a year ago, I showed the Atlanta Zeus rep. the differences in the early, narrower wrap that F. BESSON, BENGE, the 2004 Kanstul CHICAGO . . . AND Mt. Vernon Bachs all employed. The slides in my '72 Benge and my 1955 Mt. Vernon would interchange.
IF . . . the Zeus had been patterned after the '53 Mt. Vernon . . . it would have been built around the original wrap that Kanstul has already tooled for in their Chicago horn!!! Kanstul COULD have used the tooling for the Chicago model when making the Zeus if it was to be patterned after the '53-'55 Bachs but that WAS NOT done!
NO . . . The Zeus uses the NEW, post-55 "Bach-style" wrap employed by Kanstul on their other trumpets so surely the Zeus isn't even a half-hearted effort to copy the 1953 Mt. Vernon.
(Note: read this recent thread and you'll understand the height difference in the Bach tuning slides that changed forever in 1956: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=18521&forum=7&0 ).
Third-The Zeus isn't built in the handcrafted way that Bach "did fifty years ago but not today" as also claimed on the website. No, it's built like a Kanstul, for that's who makes it. Neither Bach nor Kanstul uses the same laborious labor steps that were used back then!
FOR INSTANCE . . .
Mt. Vernon bells, prior to Selmer buying Bach in 1961, used the open-wrap, French semi-round bead on the bell. Selmer immediately stopped this labor-intensive practice and went to the fully-enclosed, "round bead" on the bell. The round, soldered bead saves a couple of hours of labor . . . but old man Bach felt the French bead made his horns sound as they did.
Today probably every manufacturer uses the round, fully sealed bead! The old way required a couple of hours of very intensive labor to remove all the buffing rouge and compounds that could catch in the open French bead before the bell could be plated or lacquered. If any compounds remained they would screw up the plating tanks and the finish would also be flawed.
Also, the original Bach bells were cut out in a different shape than today's bells and annealed in a different way that gave the Mt. Vernon bells, along with the French "semi-round" open bead, it's distinctive sound.
I could go on and on . . . but no way is the Zeus built in the hand-labor way of the 1950s era Bachs as claimed.
The Zeus has virtually NOTHING in common with the early Mt. Vernons. It has everything in common with today's Kanstul trumpets, using their lower-cost valve bodies and slide assemblies and tooling used to create various Kanstul creations.
THE TRUTH HAs COME OUT BEFORE ON THIS SITE . . .
I had grave concerns about the totally false claims going waaaay back and tried my best to get Alex to modify his claims to represent the truth.
When I repeatedly pinned him down on details in late 2001 (long before becoming the WT rep. by the way), Alex publically admitted that his Zeus was never intended to be a direct copy, but was created "in the manner, or spirit, of" a 1953 Mt. Vernon. He admitted he'd asked the factory to make him a Bach-killer horn at a reasonable cost and was amazed how well it ended up!
HOWEVER . . . he just can't seem to rewrite the false claims that keep mis-leading folks to believe they are buying a horn that's built, and COPIED, from a real 1953 Mt. Vernon. Type in "Bach Mt. Vernon Trumpet" on Google . . . the #1 match is the Zachary site. No accident why he did it.
Frankly, the original Zeus and the new one are both built around Kanstul's lower-priced valve assembly that Kanstul uses on their 610, 700 series and 900 series trumpets. Even on the new, bigger dollar horn they didn't go for the premium valve body used on the 1500/1600 "Signature" line of top Kanstul trumpets.
I've played several original Zeus trumpets, both Bb and C. They are fairly priced for the money. Their "mystique" totally lies in the lies on the website about it's Mt. Vernon lineage.
The Bb Zeus trumpets are brighter than the Bach 37 and a little tighter to blow too, especially the copper one (naturally).
The Zeus C trumpet IS a very decent trumpet though that DOES actually outplay the Bach Cs. I posted a very fair review on the horns in February 2003.
My concerns aren't about the instruments, for Kanstul doesn't make a bad horn, even their cheaper ones. I just hate to see people deliberately mislead by claims that are so totally misleading . . . so utterly exposed . . . so totally admitted to . . . but never, ever changed on the website.
BTW, those early Mt. Vernons WERE stinker horns sometimes. The intonation problems of the narrow height tuning slide and corresponding leadpipe could be terrible! If I had been Alex, I'd have at least claimed my Zeus was a copy of the POST-1955 Bachs with their improved intonation!!!
Bach . . . and virtually everyone else today, uses the same dimensioned "modern" Bach wrap. They understand why the change was made. Zachary Music doesn't know the difference! Sadly, if so many people weren't being mislead it would be funny!
Sincerely,
Tom Turner |
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Pork chops
Regular Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I played a couple of Zeus Horns at the TMEA(Texas Music Educators Association)
convention back in February and was definetly NOT impressed. I played the Olympus
and the one that is supposed to be a copy of a Bach. I also played the Yamahas,
Bachs, Conns, Schilkes, Holtons, Stomvis Getzens, Bessons, Leblanc(Sandoval)
and the Zeus did not rate as well of any of the aforementioned brands.
I know that the Zeus is supposed to be moderatlely priced , and that is a
good thing for folks who are on a budget. BUT to say that the Zeus horns are on a par
with the others mentioned is misleading. When the gentleman at the Zeus booth
asked me what I thought of the horn I didn't say much because I was not really impressed.
How could someone be impressed with a Zeus with all of those GREAT TRUMPETS
in the same hall.
And as for my credentials and experience, I have a Master's from NTSU and
25 years experience as a professional player and teacher.
I have done all of the playing that most of the other pro's have done,
which includes working in clubs, pop and variety bands, shows, theatres , dixieland, latin bands, symphony pops , my current steady playing gig for
the last five years is in a church orchestra ( five services a week). My income from
this church orchestra is almost equal to what I make as public school teacher .
BTW one of the best all around horns I played while I was in San Antonio
was with out a doubt the HOLTON T101, if I was shopping for a moderatley
priced trumpet I would buy the T101 before I would buy a ZEUS. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
On 2004-03-30 17:43, Zeusfan wrote:
...I can't pop double C's on a Bach 37.
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Dude, big hint. It ain't the horn! |
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Strawdoggy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: Carlisle, PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:02 am Post subject: |
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"Hot water burn baby.... "
"Hot water burn baby...." |
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veldkamp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 668
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Tom, thanks for your reply. You don't see Zeus trumpets overhere in Europe so I can't test them personally. I CAN read the stupid website Alex made up. It's a shame when you make a decent horn for a fair price, you make such stupid advertisements. The Kanstuls I played where good horns, some very good.
I'm a lucky guy, I just bought a superhorn namely a Bach NY L 25 #3197. That dates it to 1936. I tested a lot of new horns lately but this one is a different category. So light,open and so much power. By the way, it has been previously overhauled by Zig Kanstul. He did a fine job.
Maybe that's why I'm a bit pissed of by the claims of Alex/Zeus.
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