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TOL and tongue position/movement



 
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das
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Joined: 04 Sep 2022
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: TOL and tongue position/movement Reply with quote

The book states "touching the top lip with the tounge while playing is a basic trumpet skill" and one should "never play a single note [...] without squarely striking the top lip" when doing TOL.

However, it is not described in detail, how the tounge should move, except that "tonguing can and should be done by using many different syllable positions" [p. 18].

I have a two questions regarding this:

(1) I currently do TOL by striking the upper lip with the tip of the tongue. The tongue goes back into the mouth after each strike. (So basically similar to the "traditional" ta-ta-ta technique where the tip of the tongue hits the back of the upper teeth, but now with ta-ta-ta on the upper lip.) I don't think this is very economical, so my question is whether it is "allowed" to anchor the tongue tip to the lower lip all the time and hit the upper lip with the back of the tongue (i.e., a kind of TCE tongue position between the teeth)?

I'm not just talking about the right setting for TOL exercises, but also for normal playing.

(2) I've been doing BE for >2 months now, and right now TOL is the most difficult of the three basic exercises (RO/RI/TOL) for me, because if I really try to hit the upper lip "squarely", I need almost maximum lip tension when reaching the G above the staff. After playing this exercise once or twice, I'm done. What am I doing wrong? (I do lip strength exercises every other day, so I doubt lip strength is the problem).


Thanks in advance,
Sebastian
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sebastian,

TOL is a developmental exercise. Like RO and RI, it has a definite purpose.

It is better to do the exercise without worrying about whether or not you touch the tip of the tongue to the top lip in regular playing. Some players do, and some don't.

Developmental exercises usually do not attempt to mimic regular playing, and in that respect, none of them could be called "efficient." Rather, developmental exercises force players to do something out of their comfort zone, for the purpose (eventually) of developing a higher level of balance.

I've had professional educators visit here who could not do TOL above an E top space. Without exception, these players were relatively inconsistent on the instrument and had a relatively weak range.

You say that you have been doing BE for two months. Two months is not very long on any of the exercises. It frequently takes 6-12 months to develop a strong TOL. It can take even longer to develop the correct focused double pedal sound, or to fully extend the RI exercises.

Also, being able to do an exercise, and doing it correctly, are not the same thing.

You are welcome to do TOL with anchor tongue, but I cannot predict the result. I can't control the variables that players introduce into BE. I teach BE "by the book" because I have seen the results of doing so over thousands of lessons. If you were my student, I would ask you to do the exercise in the usual way, and watch your development.

Hope this was clear!

Jeff
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das
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Joined: 04 Sep 2022
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,

I wasn't aware that TOL was also meant to be a developmental exercise like RO and RI. I mistakenly thought until now you should train the normal embouchure to be able to do TOL. Thanks for the clarification. That's the reason why it is not required to do TOL on (very) high notes?

Is it correct to say then that you can have up to four different types of embouchures?

    A rolled in embouchure for RI exercises
    A rolled out embouchure for RO exercises
    A tounge on lips embouchure for TOL exercises
    An embouchure for normal playing (if this does not coincide with one of the exercise embouchures by chance)


When doing TOL, most of the time just air comes out of the lips when reaching D2 or E2, especially when I exaggerate TOL and try to touch the upper lip with the tounge over the length (=highest point of contact - lowest point of contact) of apprx. one centimeter. So, as far as my "TOL embouchure" is concerned, I would really like to let it "transition" into the RI embouchure when ascending, because RI is possible almost effortflessly.

However, I feel most comfortable when inflating the upper (and a bit of the lower) lip when doing RI and this makes tounging on the upper lip impossible, because tounging somehow destroys the cushioned setup*, i.e. the air cushion cannot build up when the toungue is in the way. But what I can say from my perception is that the upper lip is definitely not above the upper teeth. I.e., the lip gap is centered in the middle of the teeth when doing RI and the jaw is open. I understood these two points to be the whole reason for TOL (p. 18 of the book).

(*However, I must say that normal tounging with RI is also a problem when I try to tounge with high frequency because the mouthpiece jumps on the lips due to periodic inflation and deflation of the upper lip.)


Sebastian
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would it be a correct understanding of the BE 'exercises' (RI RO ToL, etc) that their purpose is to train the player about what physical movements and adjustments are possible, and to develop the ability to do those movements?

THEN the player has more control and options of their embouchure to do what they have discovered works best for them. NOT that the player must use particular BE-style embouchure adjustments in a specific way.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay, what you said is correct. And very clear, thank you.

Jeff
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sebastian, the best I can do here is to give you general answers. For answers more specific to your particular needs, contact me privately.

In the book, TOL is clearly described on page 17 as "a means to an end rather than an end unto itself." That alone should tell you that it is a developmental exercise, and that not everyone uses it in regular playing.

Regarding your comment on four different embouchure types, please read the post from JayKosta. None of the exercises are promoted as being a specific embouchure type. Rather, the different exercises influence your embouchure to varying degrees.

We can see this in your experience of the limitations you currently have when doing the RI exercises. When your lips are (relatively) rolled in, you apparently enjoy easier high notes, but you are finding it difficult to tongue. That is fairly common. Notice that I included an exercise on the bottom of page 89 to help correct this issue. If you can't do that exercise, then RI is clearly only part of the solution to your specific embouchure puzzle.

BE is a road map for achieving a higher balance, and to help navigate it, I give lots of specific suggestions. However, it is impossible to list every potential issue (physical and mental) encountered by the reader. For that reason, I offer to evaluate videos that you post online. I do this for free. The point is to get you over any hump that you encounter, and to receive the full value of the exercises.

Several players here on the forum have taken advantage of my offer. So far, I think that all have found it worth the effort.

Let me know if I can help. Don't send a PM. Email instead.

Jeff
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:51 am    Post subject: TOL?? Reply with quote

Not to sound foolish, but what is TOL???
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: TOL?? Reply with quote

jvf1095 wrote:
Not to sound foolish, but what is TOL???

Tongue On the Lips
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jvf1095
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you!
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