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Looking for darker sound on flugelhorn


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TimW
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Location: Cleburne, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:41 am    Post subject: Looking for darker sound on flugelhorn Reply with quote

I play on a Couesnon prototype flugelhorn that was custom built for my trumpet teacher (Harold Lieberman) in the early 1960's. I bought it from him around 1976. My current mouthpiece is a Schilke 13F (all of my regular mouthpieces are in the Schilke 13 series) with a French shank. While it plays well and it is comfortable, I've always felt it's a shade too bright. I was talking with Schilke recently about building me another mouthpiece, but the initial quote from them was frighteningly high, and there's no guarantee that it would give me what I want. I'm interested to know what others play.
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trombahonker
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you might be satisfied with a Stork Vacchiano 5FL, they can make it with the correct shank. It will have noticeably more volume than the Schilke, and the rim should be similar to the 13.

https://storkcustom.com/mouthpieces/flugelhorn-mouthpieces/
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second the Stork flugelhorn mouthpieces. The FL cup offers a wonderful, warm sound in the lower and middle registers without sacrificing the upper register (much).
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sound experienced so, this is just to satisfy me, but you are using a "V" shaped mouthpiece, correct?
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the "darkest" ultra dark sound, I use a Reeves 41HF (huge flugel) in combination with my '98 Getzen 895S. It does not produce the same ultra dark colour spectrum with my '76 Getzen 895S, though I do get a very dark approximation on this horn using a much more shallow 41FE (flugel everything)...go figure? Mouthpiece/horn combinations are often a tricky, big deal to me though.

Per the Reeves Flugelhorn Mouthpiece description:

HF Our warmest, darkest sounding cup available. Great for playing in the staff on ballads and smooth jazz, it is not recommended for extended upper register work.

Caveat: Reeves mouthpieces are not inexpensive!

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike
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Shifty
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trombahonker wrote:
I think you might be satisfied with a Stork Vacchiano 5FL, they can make it with the correct shank. It will have noticeably more volume than the Schilke, and the rim should be similar to the 13.

https://storkcustom.com/mouthpieces/flugelhorn-mouthpieces/

I'll second (or third) the Stork 5FL. I have one, and also a Curry 6FLD. Similar feel to the cup, but the Curry sound is even darker.

Mouthpiece Express currently shows a 6FLD in the Couesnon taper, but the 5FLD only in the new universal taper.
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TimW
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
You sound experienced so, this is just to satisfy me, but you are using a "V" shaped mouthpiece, correct?


The Schilke 13F is a deep V cup mouthpiece. and it's made to be specifically compatible with the French receiver on my Couesnon flugelhorn.

No harm in asking. BTW: I've been playing trumpet for nearly 58 years, so your guess about being experienced was spot-on.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were me, I'd call Reeves and tell them exactly what I want.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for darker sound on flugelhorn Reply with quote

TimW wrote:
I play on a Couesnon prototype flugelhorn that was custom built for my trumpet teacher (Harold Lieberman) in the early 1960's.

You and I had the same trumpet teacher. I met Harold Lieberman at the Ramapo Summer Jazz Workshops, and studied with him for a couple years back in high school.

Mike
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:
For the "darkest" ultra dark sound, I use a Reeves 41HF (huge flugel) in combination with my '98 Getzen 895S. It does not produce the same ultra dark colour spectrum with my '76 Getzen 895S, though I do get a very dark approximation on this horn using a much more shallow 41FE (flugel everything)...go figure? Mouthpiece/horn combinations are often a tricky, big deal to me though.

Per the Reeves Flugelhorn Mouthpiece description:

HF Our warmest, darkest sounding cup available. Great for playing in the staff on ballads and smooth jazz, it is not recommended for extended upper register work.

Caveat: Reeves mouthpieces are not inexpensive!

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike


+1

Regards
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Jon Arnold
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Warburton flugel piece for my Couesnon and it sounds real dark and fluffy. Go with a deeper one.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Couesnon flügels I know were made for the real flügel sound, not for (ultra) dark. My advice: forget the corny dark flügel sound.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
The Couesnon flügels I know were made for the real flügel sound, not for (ultra) dark. My advice: forget the corny dark flügel sound.


I was about to post something in this vein. Is the OP trying to make his Couesnon do something it's not capable of? Are there Couesnon players that have achieved a sound more like a Kanstul 1525?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Arnold wrote:
I have a Warburton flugel piece for my Couesnon and it sounds real dark and fluffy. Go with a deeper one.

What exactly does "fluffy" mean when referring to a brass instrument? Do you mean airy? Foofy? Diffuse? That's not a quality I'd want in a flugel sound.

I've used a Schilke 16F2 for years. A long time ago a mentor of mine at my first Army band duty station at Fort Meade gave me that mouthpiece to use when we started using flugels for certain tunes in the brass quintet. I must have had a different mouthpiece at some point because right when I got there I was issued a brand new 4 valve Getzen flugel (that I didn't particularly like) and that I later switched to a Yamaha 631, but I distinctly remember him giving me this mouthpiece.

It's a big, deep mouthpiece, but I've always really liked the sound I get on it - it's big, round and dark.

I've posted this clip probably close to a dozen times, but that was the mouthpiece I was using when I recorded this. The flugel I had at the time was a Kanstul CCF925 with a 100% copper bell.


Link

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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Jon Arnold wrote:
I have a Warburton flugel piece for my Couesnon and it sounds real dark and fluffy. Go with a deeper one.

What exactly does "fluffy" mean when referring to a brass instrument? Do you mean airy? Foofy? Diffuse? That's not a quality I'd want in a flugel sound.

I've used a Schilke 16F2 for years. A long time ago a mentor of mine at my first Army band duty station at Fort Meade gave me that mouthpiece to use when we started using flugels for certain tunes in the brass quintet. I must have had a different mouthpiece at some point because right when I got there I was issued a brand new 4 valve Getzen flugel (that I didn't particularly like) and that I later switched to a Yamaha 631, but I distinctly remember him giving me this mouthpiece.

It's a big, deep mouthpiece, but I've always really liked the sound I get on it - it's big, round and dark.

I've posted this clip probably close to a dozen times, but that was the mouthpiece I was using when I recorded this. The flugel I had at the time was a Kanstul CCF925 with a 100% copper bell.


Link


Wow. I really like the sound you guys got there. I could totally see that sound in a small group jazz setting. I wouldn't call it dark, just mellow and fluid. Well done.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
The Couesnon flügels I know were made for the real flügel sound, not for (ultra) dark. My advice: forget the corny dark flügel sound.

Exactly, that is why I play my Couesnon Monopole with a Stork Vacchiano 2Fl or 2 Fls depending on the score. For my the right equilibrium.
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trombahonker
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shifty wrote:
I'll second (or third) the Stork 5FL....

Mouthpiece Express currently shows...


When buying Storks, I recommend either buying directly through their storefront, or by calling them directly. They almost always answer the phone, or respond promptly to a message. They'll be able to tell you what is in stock, or how long it will take to make and get to you.

Their prices are shockingly reasonable. <$90 for a mouthpiece with the shank, cup, rim, throat, and backbore you want.

~Aaron
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there's a difference of opinion as to what a Couesnon sound is, this is a Couesnon: Art Farmer, "to Sweden with love" album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrgjXsuQKRg&list=PLTLR5xYDscf34cglVTIOBMw-SyLyIbr_G&index=3
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for darker sound on flugelhorn Reply with quote

TimW wrote:
I play on a Couesnon prototype flugelhorn that was custom built for my trumpet teacher (Harold Lieberman) in the early 1960's. I bought it from him around 1976. My current mouthpiece is a Schilke 13F (all of my regular mouthpieces are in the Schilke 13 series) with a French shank. While it plays well and it is comfortable, I've always felt it's a shade too bright. I was talking with Schilke recently about building me another mouthpiece, but the initial quote from them was frighteningly high, and there's no guarantee that it would give me what I want. I'm interested to know what others play.


I would go to a deeper V cup, personally. I play a similar diameter - it might be worth contacting Doug or Cookie at Vennture and getting a Schilke 13 rim put on a flugel cup like mine (Barkley) or whatever else they recommend, as I think it will really help you find your sound without compromising pitch and playability. Cookie also 3D prints prototypes for Vennture at a very reasonable rate, so you can test a few designs - he is a flugel *nut* so you are in safe hands!! I adore my flugel piece that Doug designed!!

Best,
Mike
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delano can be a bit strident about flugelhorn intonation, but it actually is a helpful reminder for many of us, especially those of us with non-professional ears. I'd bought one of the ultra deep cup mouthpieces and it made the high range worse. I would record yourself on different pieces if you get the chance, because while you may hear a difference, I'd be surprised if anyone can hear it out front. Your schilke should be a pretty good piece.
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