Anyone flugel players double on F or Eb lower pitched horns?

[Riojazz]

Since I am the only brass player in my ten-piece chamber group for classical, pop and jazz, and we are 'treble-heavy'**, I wind up playing flugelhorn a lot. That's fine, but if I wanted to go lower, what would you recommend?

I don't want to use a euphonium etc. as it interferes too much with my trumpet embouchure. Horns in the middle register-wise, though, are a possibility and I have tried them a long time ago: mellophonium in 1964; a curved old mellophone, 1965; an alto horn, 1972, and a French horn, 1974. Man, that old mellophone was a blast for jazz solos. Wish I still had that.

I'm assuming there has been some development in these instruments since then. In particular, the newer mellophones look promising even if they are called 'marching'. Videos I've watched indicate the sound is not unlike a low flugel, and intonation isn't as horrible as it was back then, especially with the Kanstul trigger that adjusts the whole tube.

Does anyone here have experience in a similar position and have guidance for me? I could put a couple of thousand into a new instrument. Thanks!

** instrumentation is four strings (violin, viola, cello, double bass), two flutes, two clarinets, and me on anything in my signature below. I have to do all the orchestration.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[cheiden]

French Horn seems the most obvious (and familiar) choice. I assume it would complement the strings quite easily. Trombone would be my next choice but then you have to deal with the big mouthpiece again. I do know a trumpet player who has a lot of fun doubling on the alto horn.

How about scoring a 4-valve flugel? That'd buy you a few lower notes.

FWIW I love playing the French Horn.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Riojazz]

That's true, a 4-valve flugel and a thin strip of duct tape would do nicely!

Thanks for your advice; much appreciated.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[Halflip]

This website might give you some useful information:

http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/mellophone/
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[TrumpetMD]

I played a lot of Eb and F horn parts on my 4-valve flugelhorn back in college.

But since you're thinking of buying a horn, I wonder if alto horn (tenor horn) might be better than a marching mellophone for what you're planning. I've played some alto horn using a flugelhorn mouthpiece, although I realize a legitimate tenor horn player might balk at that. But for me, as an occasional player, it makes the transition from trumpet very easy. Or just get an alto horn mouthpiece and go for broke.

Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.

[kehaulani]

Alto Horm? Nice register and if you don't want to use the larger mouthpiece, you can substitute with a French horn mpc. I played with this set-up in community band for about a year and no one noticed. And you get killer range.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Halflip]

The link I provided discusses alto horns as well as mellophones (and some other variants besides).
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[Richard III]

I double on trumpet, euphonium, marching trombone and tuba. I used to play french horn and still own one. However, the horn does not work for me doubling. Everything else works fine. Further, since I adjust everything I play to Bb instrument in treble clef, it makes life pretty easy. They are all just a different octave.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[romajore]

While the trumpet family are my primary instruments, I have doubled on many of the alto instruments in the last 5 years as the need arose. Here are some thoughts.

French horn - Can’t beat the sound, range, availability of instruments and music. I played horn through high school, so switching to using the left hand and dealing with all the tuning slides and alternate fingerings was easier for me than someone who never played horn before. 3 years in community band because there were 18 trumpets an 2 horns. It is the hardest of the choices to play for most doublers.

Mellophone - I used a Yamaha YMP-204. Most in tune mello I played. Used to cover alto parts in quartets and trios during COVID. I found the Hammond mouthpieces worked best. Probably easiest transition.

Mellophonium - the Stan Kenton Conn version. Manageable, fun, but lots harder to play in tune. I liked the Legends copy of Tony Scodwells mouthpiece best on this instrument, though it is a little smaller ID than I normally play. Really only played this one for fun not in ensembles.

Alto horn - picked up a used Packer-372 model. Really nice instrument. Love this instrument with a Wick 3 mouthpiece. What a sound. Unless you’re playing in a BBB, you have to do a lot of transposing since it’s in E-flat. Same transposition as C parts on a Bb trumpet so pretty easy to do.

Altonium - this one I played in HS marching band many years ago. Bell forward, baritone style design. Ok, but not great.

Good luck

[bean_counter]

I have doubled Bb cornet and Eb alto a number of times for the civil war brass band I play in. Alto (aka tenor horn in British brass band) is close enough that it doesn't mess with my embouchure. I had a C/Bb bugle with a non-standard receiver, an alto mouthpiece fit. Huge cup for the horn (and challenging) but worked fine.

Baritone - nope, can't do it.

As an amateur, my main issue when changing between them is: "where is my register"?.
_________________
Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3

[cheiden]

[Riojazz]

These are all great posts, and I thank you all. I did read the info on the provided links.

I've nearly forgotten, but during college 50 years ago(!), I tried almost everything in the brass family. In addition to my list above of tenor-range instruments, I've played tuba, baritone, valve trombone, a bit of slide trombone, even a soprano trombone pitched in the trumpet register.

The comment above that matches my research best is by romajore about the Yamaha YMP-204, and the "alto parts in quartets and trios" plus the intonation. I've never tried a new-design mellophone. I think this may be where I will look next.
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[Shawnino]

Oh yeah.
Eb Tenor (Alto, whatever) horn.
Bb Inderbinen Basso (effectively a bass cornet).

Best teacher I had insisted everybody double on "something" with a different mouthpiece. Claim was that when you go to the gym, even if you're just exercising legs, you don't do just one exercise.
I swear by it.

[mr oakmount]

"That's true, a 4-valve flugel and a thin strip of duct tape would do nicely!"

Well, not quite. Keeping the 4th valve taped down DOES put the Flugel in the Key of F, but then all the other valve loops would be way too short for the lower pitch. You may be able to extend the valve slides enough to compensate or you could have a brass tech or instrument builder extend the valve slides.

[BlessingInDisguise]

I went on an alto brass kick some years ago and purchased a bunch of different examples.

While they all have their pros and cons, I feel that the best in my collection overall is the small-bell Donald E. Getzen (made by Willson) bell-front mellophone. Decent intonation, good sound. It looks like a big cornet. I use a Blessing 5 mellophone mouthpiece which is not massively larger than my trumpet size (around Bach 1).

That's the horn I would try first if I was in your musical situation. Sounds fun!
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Despite my user name, I am a Getzen fanboy.

[romajore]

Here’s a current e-bay listing for something I haven’t seen before, an e-flat alto flugelhorn. Another alto instrument to the mix.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325212870677?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7MepaJnNT_q&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=s9uXucvmTMe&widget_ver=artemis&media=EMAIL

[Ancientram]

I have an F alto rotary flugel horn. I found it on eBay some time back. I believe it's a Miraphon/Mirafone. It came with a French horn mouthpiece and a small adapter to adapt the horn shank to a trumpet/flugel leadpipe. Actualy, one of my grand daughters has it at present, so I'm afraid I can't vouch for the range and intonation. They're few and far between and probably more available on the German version of eBay.

Steve

[nieuwguyski]

A number of years ago I cleaned up one of the DEG bell-front altos for a friend who had bought a batch of old UNLV instruments. They were then sold on ebay.

I have to say, I was tempted to buy that DEG alto. At the time I owned a Holton alto trumpet in F with an H-shaped extension slide for Eb, and a 1949 King altonium with slides for F and Eb, so I certainly didn't need another alto brass. And having played Eb tuba in college and Eb cornet later in life, I'm simply more comfortable on an Eb instrument.

The DEG alto was essentially unplayed and included a card in the case advertising the optional Eb main tuning slide (which was a tightly-wrapped thing that looked a little scary), but there was no Eb slide with the horn.

After I had cleaned it I plugged my Wick 3 tenor horn mouthpiece into the DEG, and... wow. It was impressive. I simply couldn't justify buying an F-only horn when I already had two F/Eb horns, but that DEG kicked both my other horn's butts in F.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I have the Jupiter mellophone--I bought it used for $100 and put another $100 into it. I have a Hammond mouthpiece for it also. I also saw a Jupiter tenor horn selling nearby for around $200. I'm trying to decide if I can justify another instrument. That said, if I were in a group that needed a french horn I'd likely just get a used student french horn and try that.

[mr oakmount]

In Austrian/German Marching Bands you will find the Althorn, which is basically a rotary valve, horn shaped Mellophone (or horn in high Eb with an Alto Horn / Mellophone Mouthpice). Hindemith even wrote a sonata for it.

They come both in right and left-handed versions and are often surprisingly well in tune (compared to other Alto range brass instruments). Obviously the written d1 (valves 1/3) and c#1 (1/2/3) will always be sharp, but that is par for the course. Cerveny (Czech Republic) makes very reasonable new ones.

Here are some:
http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rotary-valve/alto-horns/cah-501
https://www.ebay.at/itm/154862085124?hash=item240e7fe404:g:OYUAAOSw5cliE7Fg
https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/es-horn-horn-blechblas-instrument-mit-koffer-601963734