• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

To paint or not to paint....


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Years ago, I painted a spittoon for use by us horns in my basement. You know, so we didn't go draining spit valves on the carpet. Well, it was of course raw brass when I bought it from the antique mall and I barely cleaned it and slapped a coat of red spray on it.

I was inspecting that recently and the paint is pretty durable it seems; at least where it adhered well. There were some weird spots that I think were likely from a dirty surface.

Well, I went ahead and bought some black in the same paint as the kind I used on that spittoon. I also bought a secondary color to do some detail work - it won't have to stick to anything but paint, so I didn't buy anything special for that one.

I plan on documenting it all with video and posting to youtube when I'm finished. I'll share a link here. Probably be a week or two as I want to make sure to allow ample time for drying between spray sessions.

Currently, the plan is
1) Record horn playing in current condition
2) Disassemble and clean, multiple times, last time with acetone wipe down
3) Hang and spray the black; allow to dry at least 24h
4) Reassemble and test, record this for comparisson
5) If all is going well, continue on with stencil and secondary color painting. Might need to respray the black, or could be a fully botched project by this point if the second recording sounds terrible.

I hope to get started on Thursday. Took a few days off work. Wish me luck!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1804
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you plan to play this trumpet above high C you should probably use Rust-Oleum High-Heat Ultra.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
If you plan to play this trumpet above high C you should probably use Rust-Oleum High-Heat Ultra.




I plan on painting flames on it so I can play faster!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to (spray) lacquer a detachable Lawler C trumpet screw bell (about 10-12 inches in length to the end of the bell) a few years ago. I only did a light coat, let it dry enclosed in a box in my garage overnight, and playtested it the next day. Horrible results! Did not even recognize the sound! I immediately stripped it and eventually had it silver plated.

Last fall I had three high-end, silver-plated trumpets gold plated...two Bb tpts, and a C tpt. Well, I had heard that that should not change the sound, but as I continued to play them over a few weeks after receiving, I began to notice certain things were definitely not the same, namely that the overtones were slightly attenuated (dampened). I plan to keep one of them, only, and sell the other two horns. I believe some players would just love the tonal profile of the two I'm selling, so it would be an individual preference.

Believe me, I was solidly hoping that no change would occur, and that I could just enjoy the benefits of gold-plated horns, but I could not escape the reality of the change. I believe that regardless of what any machine tells us, the human ear can pick up things that are yet to be detectable by present technology. (And then there are definitely things that a machine can show that our individual perception cannot grasp.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
I tried to (spray) lacquer a detachable Lawler C trumpet screw bell (about 10-12 inches in length to the end of the bell) a few years ago. I only did a light coat, let it dry enclosed in a box in my garage overnight, and playtested it the next day. Horrible results! Did not even recognize the sound! I immediately stripped it and eventually had it silver plated.

Last fall I had three high-end, silver-plated trumpets gold plated...two Bb tpts, and a C tpt. Well, I had heard that that should not change the sound, but as I continued to play them over a few weeks after receiving, I began to notice certain things were definitely not the same, namely that the overtones were slightly attenuated (dampened). I plan to keep one of them, only, and sell the other two horns. I believe some players would just love the tonal profile of the two I'm selling, so it would be an individual preference.

Believe me, I was solidly hoping that no change would occur, and that I could just enjoy the benefits of gold-plated horns, but I could not escape the reality of the change. I believe that regardless of what any machine tells us, the human ear can pick up things that are yet to be detectable by present technology. (And then there are definitely things that a machine can show that our individual perception cannot grasp.)


This may have more to do with the preparation and process than with the layer of gold itself.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dstpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
dstpt wrote:
I tried to (spray) lacquer a detachable Lawler C trumpet screw bell (about 10-12 inches in length to the end of the bell) a few years ago. I only did a light coat, let it dry enclosed in a box in my garage overnight, and playtested it the next day. Horrible results! Did not even recognize the sound! I immediately stripped it and eventually had it silver plated.

Last fall I had three high-end, silver-plated trumpets gold plated...two Bb tpts, and a C tpt. Well, I had heard that that should not change the sound, but as I continued to play them over a few weeks after receiving, I began to notice certain things were definitely not the same, namely that the overtones were slightly attenuated (dampened). I plan to keep one of them, only, and sell the other two horns. I believe some players would just love the tonal profile of the two I'm selling, so it would be an individual preference.

Believe me, I was solidly hoping that no change would occur, and that I could just enjoy the benefits of gold-plated horns, but I could not escape the reality of the change. I believe that regardless of what any machine tells us, the human ear can pick up things that are yet to be detectable by present technology. (And then there are definitely things that a machine can show that our individual perception cannot grasp.)


This may have more to do with the preparation and process than with the layer of gold itself.

The gold plating was done at Theta Plate, Inc., in Albuquerque, NM. They do not do any prep work other than dipping in the rinsing solution for removal of oils immediately prior to plating. I did all the prep work at home and was not expecting them to make the horns look new, only to get gold plating on the silver that was already there. I taped off the male portion of the slides with electrical tape as one of their suggestions/allowances.

They did use bungs (stoppers) in all openings, so my main hassle upon return was using a solvent to get all of the stickiness from the tape completely removed from the slides. I did not have to lap any slides or valves & casings, which was a blessing. They also have a quick turnaround time...items are in their building for only 4-5 business days total, largely because they don't have a lot of room to store, and they have a lot of product to plate from week to week. So, it was less than three weeks from when I last played them and left my house and when I got them back. Interestingly, I have a lot of silver-plated horns comparable to their tonal profiles, so I had them to use for closer contrast and comparison in the few weeks that followed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, swear I'm not tech-illiterate. Sharing pics here doesn't seem easy though... I'm going to use g-drive links I guess.

So, I'm still getting over a cold from the weekend, so it's not done yet, but I did manage to get the main body of the horn painted and tested. But like....TESTED. I played it at our gig on Friday night (4-hour pop/dance gig). I can't hear a difference; the sax player can't hear a difference.

The valve caps and top/bottoms were black from the factory (harrelson mod kit), as is the delerim mpc rim. I have two spots where the spray ran, I'm going to sand those down and repair that this week. Wife likes it as is with the brass slides - I'm not a fan of the multi-color so I'm going to make time this week to get those done as well. And then maybe a coat of lacquer over that to give it a nice hard protectant.

The only thing I WILL have to deal with being brass of course is the insides of the slides. Can't exactly paint those black. LOL

Before
these pics didn't work - see the IMGUR link a few posts below


Last edited by Dufcapers on Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Halflip
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: WI

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dufcapers wrote:
Ok, swear I'm not tech-illiterate. Sharing pics here doesn't seem easy though... I'm going to use g-drive links I guess.

When I tried to open your links, Google asked me to sign in. When I did that, it told me that access was secured and I would have to submit a request for access.

You should be able to change the settings on your links/files to give people access without forcing them to sign in, request access, etc.

Otherwise, here is a forum thread describing how to insert pictures right in your Trumpet Herald posts using Imgur (read the last two posts in the thread; you probably won't like the process, although it's really not that bad):

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146974
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, thanks for the tut link. I'll find that and re-upload when I get off work
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://imgur.com/a/aHpoPpD

Maybe just the link will work? Including the IMG code didn't.... And the tutorial seems to indicate features only available to a paid IMGUR account.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Halflip
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: WI

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dufcapers wrote:
Maybe just the link will work? Including the IMG code didn't.... And the tutorial seems to indicate features only available to a paid IMGUR account.

The link works. To insert the image right in the post, you need to open the image in Imgur, select "Copy" for the BBCode option, and then do an insert of notepad (NOTE: I meant to say "clipboard") contents here. And it's free! Everything I do on Imgur is available without any kind of paid subscription -- I know, because I never paid Imgur anything.

I took the liberty of copying one of your pics, uploading it to Imgur, and posting it here just to show that the process works (let me know if you want me to remove it):


_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"


Last edited by Halflip on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Dufcapers wrote:
Maybe just the link will work? Including the IMG code didn't.... And the tutorial seems to indicate features only available to a paid IMGUR account.

The link works. To insert the image right in the post, you need to open the image in Imgur, select "Copy" for the BBCode option, and then do an insert of notepad contents here. And it's free! Everything I do on Imgur is available without any kind of paid subscription -- I know, because I never paid Imgur anything.

I took the liberty of copying one of your pics, uploading it to Imgur, and posting it here just to show that the process works (let me know if you want me to remove it):


Remove it? Heh, no. You're the MVP man. Thanks for the guide. I guess I'm rusty on the old BBCode style forums. Too much time on social media where stuff is designed to be easy for a 4 y/o.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bzzn87
New Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2023
Posts: 3
Location: Manassas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I was just curious to hear how things went with your project. It sounded like a really cool topic to follow up on! For me, that sounds like a dope project! Customizing your spittoon with some fresh paint is gonna make it stand out for sure. Good call on documenting the process—youTube tutorials are always a hit.
If you need any paint supplies, I've heard KHY paint in bulk is the way to go. They've got everything you need for DIY projects, and their stuff is legit. Check 'em out at https://szkhy.com/ and get ready to rock that paint job! Best of luck, and I can't wait to see the finished product!


Last edited by bzzn87 on Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it! I had bought a new Harrelson at the time and that is now my main horn to use, but the black 6310z has been a solid secondary. It kept all the aspects of the horn - very versatile. If I plug a bucket into the mouthpiece it just fluffs all the way out, but a more lead focused mpc gives it a nice edge (exactly how the horn performed before painting).

Luckily I was very careful during the process and my valves haven't had any issues either, nor any of the slides. It goes to every gig with me and gets played quite frequently.

Now that you mention it....might give my flugel the same treatment. It has a patch on the bell that is wearing ugly from my palms (and the fact that it was a cheap horn). A nice fresh coat of paint on that would look better than it does now for SURE.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
I tried to (spray) lacquer a detachable Lawler C trumpet screw bell (about 10-12 inches in length to the end of the bell) a few years ago. I only did a light coat, let it dry enclosed in a box in my garage overnight, and playtested it the next day. Horrible results! Did not even recognize the sound! I immediately stripped it and eventually had it silver plated.

Last fall I had three high-end, silver-plated trumpets gold plated...two Bb tpts, and a C tpt. Well, I had heard that that should not change the sound, but as I continued to play them over a few weeks after receiving, I began to notice certain things were definitely not the same, namely that the overtones were slightly attenuated (dampened). I plan to keep one of them, only, and sell the other two horns. I believe some players would just love the tonal profile of the two I'm selling, so it would be an individual preference.

Believe me, I was solidly hoping that no change would occur, and that I could just enjoy the benefits of gold-plated horns, but I could not escape the reality of the change. I believe that regardless of what any machine tells us, the human ear can pick up things that are yet to be detectable by present technology. (And then there are definitely things that a machine can show that our individual perception cannot grasp.)


The changes that occur from various finishes and materials are more audible close to the horn than they are at a distance. A good set of ears that know what to listen for can sometimes hear differences. I used to test the sound of various horns by playing them in a separate room from where my son was listening. His observations usually mirrored my own.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The changes that occur from various finishes and materials are more audible close to the horn than they are at a distance. A good set of ears that know what to listen for can sometimes hear differences. I used to test the sound of various horns by playing them in a separate room from where my son was listening. His observations usually mirrored my own.


Jason Harrelson ran a series of blind play tests with a spectral analyzer I think it was (some technical machine measuring the sound), the very detailed youtube might still be available. He found, without a doubt, there's no difference in silver/lacquer/raw brass finish where it's related to the sound.

I've done testing myself on a much more casual basis and none of my bandmates were able to hear the difference in this horn vs another 6310z in raw brass. It's simply a myth that the finish affects the horn. Your playing has way more impact and you probably subconsciously impact the coloring of the sound without knowing it in the tests you did with your son.

It is speculated that a *much* thicker lacquer or paint could affect the tone negatively, but it would take more than your normal level of professional lacquer.

Ask Arturo how his painted horn sounds. It was painted by a famous artist, can't remember who and can't seem to find it now. Or how that sticker he likes to keep on his main horn affects his sound. Considering the level of playing he is at, if that sticker (much thicker than a layer of lacquer or paint) affected anything you think he'd keep it? And do you think your ear is more trained than the Maestro's?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dufcapers wrote:
Quote:
The changes that occur from various finishes and materials are more audible close to the horn than they are at a distance. A good set of ears that know what to listen for can sometimes hear differences. I used to test the sound of various horns by playing them in a separate room from where my son was listening. His observations usually mirrored my own.


Jason Harrelson ran a series of blind play tests with a spectral analyzer I think it was (some technical machine measuring the sound), the very detailed youtube might still be available. He found, without a doubt, there's no difference in silver/lacquer/raw brass finish where it's related to the sound.

I've done testing myself on a much more casual basis and none of my bandmates were able to hear the difference in this horn vs another 6310z in raw brass. It's simply a myth that the finish affects the horn. Your playing has way more impact and you probably subconsciously impact the coloring of the sound without knowing it in the tests you did with your son.

It is speculated that a *much* thicker lacquer or paint could affect the tone negatively, but it would take more than your normal level of professional lacquer.

Ask Arturo how his painted horn sounds. It was painted by a famous artist, can't remember who and can't seem to find it now. Or how that sticker he likes to keep on his main horn affects his sound. Considering the level of playing he is at, if that sticker (much thicker than a layer of lacquer or paint) affected anything you think he'd keep it? And do you think your ear is more trained than the Maestro's?


Yes, I know about Jason's work and his claims. I also know that the differences in sound aren't always apparent beyond a few inches or, perhaps feet from the horn. However, my son has only a little musical training and was, without coaching, able to identify differences between two Wild Thing flugelhorn that I had at the same time. One was all brass and silver plated. The other has no finish and a copper bell and branch. Without discussing anything about what I heard, and without seeing me play, he described the same differences in sound quality that I heard.

Also, over the ten-plus years I have known Flip Oakes, we have gotten together in various places and compared several of his horns, often the same models with different finishes. Over time, it became apparent to me that the polyester-acrylic finish that Kanstul used added a high frequency hiss that I could hear coming from trumpets and flugelhorn with that finish, but not the silver plated horns.

Lastly, it became clear to me that the silver plating applied by Kanstul consistently darkened and consolidated the timbre of whichever type of horn it was applied to, compared with the very same model in clear lacquer. This revelation went against what I've always read and expected to hear. Along the same line, I find that the horns they made with copper bells have a lighter core to their timbre compared to yellow brass, regardless of how "dark" my eyes think they should sound.

In the end, I believe a person's ability to hear and a machine's ability to measure can vary widely. We hear what we are looking for and miss the rest. It's a form of target fixation. The trick is to bring an open mind, shedding preconceived ideas, and hear what can be heard.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dufcapers
Regular Member


Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 50
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but it's been my experience that the person playing the horn has the control. If you think it's going to play darker/brighter/greener/more purple.......it will.

If you think it's going to play a certain way as you pick it up....it will play that way. I know I can make my playing sound warmer or brighter just with a little change in embouchure and breath control. It's no stretch of the imagination to think you subconsciously do just that when playing every time you pick up the horn.

If you're not doing it fully blind and gloved....you're not really "testing" anything but what your subconscious is telling you that horn will sound like.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dufcapers wrote:
You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but it's been my experience that the person playing the horn has the control. If you think it's going to play darker/brighter/greener/more purple.......it will.

If you think it's going to play a certain way as you pick it up....it will play that way. I know I can make my playing sound warmer or brighter just with a little change in embouchure and breath control. It's no stretch of the imagination to think you subconsciously do just that when playing every time you pick up the horn.

If you're not doing it fully blind and gloved....you're not really "testing" anything but what your subconscious is telling you that horn will sound like.


Yes, what you say happens a lot. Byron Autrey told me that when he was hired to test a new instrument, he had only the first 15 seconds to determine what the horn was truly like. After that, he'd learned that his body (or anyone else's) would subconsciously begin to bring the horn toward his inherent sound concept and adjust to its playing characteristics.

That is why I say that I have formed my observations over years of hearing others and myself playing different instruments in different venues at different times and in different situations. I don't hold opinions with a firm hand, as it were, because I know that what you say is true. There are trends, however, that can be identified, if a person seeks them out over time.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group