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I need some help



 
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:45 am    Post subject: I need some help Reply with quote

Hello,

I'll give a little backstory so you have something to go by.

I'm 63 years old and a strong player. I play a lot of big band lead and classical type stuff. I use two mouthpieces. A while back my lead MP was damaged. It was custom made for me. I called the maker and they sent a new one. It was a little different than the old one. I used it anyway because it was close.

I started having trouble with the notes not coming out around high C. The buzz just stopped and, I had trouble with my legit playing. I decided that the two MP were too different and got a new lead that was identical to the damaged one.

Problem solved until last night. Playing lead and the sound just shut off. I wasn't tired and it happened in the second tune. I changed to my other MP and was able to play, just with a smaller sound.

My conclusion is that maybe I'm not warming up properly. If so, I don't know what the proper warm up is. My lips have to be swelling to stop the buzz. Why? What changed? Ideas?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might have to do with how you feel the mouthpiece placement and pressure on your lips. Maybe lip chapping, or food / drink irritation, etc.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I shall be following your story with interest. In the last two weeks my situation got so bad that I could barely play above the staff. I didn't think I had changed anything. Of course everything goes through your mind. Is it the mouthpiece? Is it the horn? I started reading everything I could about range issues. I tried this and that.

I disregard things like food or drink. Those are micro influences. Interesting for me though is that during the same period, my playing on bigger horns got even better. Bigger horns means euphonium and tuba. Practice almost zero on those. What's the difference? Big horns for me are zero stress or anxiety. I realized one of the things I was doing was stressing out when the high note came and tightening up. Once there was a failure, the worry crept in and became a cycle of failure that just got worse and worse. Any chance it is just that simple for you?
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly this happened to me long time ago. I tried a Schilke 15A, had played on it for some weeks at home but then on a concert (playing lead), after 2-3 tunes my lips stopped vibrating. What to do? I pulled out my old Schilke 14 and carried on. No problems at all!
Thinking about this I arrived at the conclusion that the rim of the 15A was too flat. Deviation from one´s preferred tolerances might get critical.

Now - You have played for a long time on this mpc - obviously it seems to be a very good fit.
So something else? 1)might be that you for some reason got subconsciously nervous!The weirdest things might happen in such cases. I know.

2)Are you absolutely sure that you don´t have come down with a bout of the overuse syndrom? Also it´s all too easy to "sprain" a lip without really sensing it. A high Eb nailed somewhat awkwardly...

You mention swelling - yes because of the above reasons??

What has changed? Maybe you have - getting older by the day might mean that your old "defaults" ain´t what they used to be. But for heavens sake don´t start a safari. Easy does it! Contemplate! Reflect!
And good luck! A little further on the road getting fresh perspectives!
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Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think the problem is caused by not warming up correctly. I think the lips build up tissue or something and become strong just where you need them to vibrate.

Maybe too much smile and not enough pucker. I'm not sure. Maybe, don't warm up enough or correctly = compensate without thinking about it?
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Joe Spitzer
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, "compensate without thinking about it" - creative idea. As when you sprain an ankle then developing a sore back in your efforts to avoid hurting too much when walking.
Warming up the wrong way? You seem to be a seasoned guy so why should that happen now?
Too much smile? The BE method recommends the "angry old man look" while at the same time unlocking the corners. Tricky business.

But - something seems to have changed as your 'regime' worked in the past.
Question is what!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Yeah, "compensate without thinking about it" - creative idea. As when you sprain an ankle then developing a sore back in your efforts to avoid hurting too much when walking.
Warming up the wrong way? You seem to be a seasoned guy so why should that happen now?
Too much smile? The BE method recommends the "angry old man look" while at the same time unlocking the corners. Tricky business.

But - something seems to have changed as your 'regime' worked in the past.
Question is what!


How do I fix the problem?
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
... How do I fix the problem?

---------
Determine if there is a 'new thing' in your non-playing life, and also if there's some new action that you do while playing.

If there are any 'new things', then try going back to the old way if possible & reasonable.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Yeah, "compensate without thinking about it" - creative idea. As when you sprain an ankle then developing a sore back in your efforts to avoid hurting too much when walking.
Warming up the wrong way? You seem to be a seasoned guy so why should that happen now?
Too much smile? The BE method recommends the "angry old man look" while at the same time unlocking the corners. Tricky business.

But - something seems to have changed as your 'regime' worked in the past.
Question is what!


How do I fix the problem?


By working face to face with a qualified teacher.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Is it possible that sometimes a perceived setback is actually a sign that a step forward is around the corner? That your embouchure is evolving? My belief is if you focus on a beautiful easy sound and never force anything (which means at times you lay off above the staff) and practise in "performance mode", a lot, of its own accord your technique must improve, mustn't it?
best wishes and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously You are not the average Joe! You are a seasoned, skilled music maker with a long experience. And knowledgeable!
So come on - you must know that the rest of us, knowledgeable or not cannot prescribe what to do - what fix might be the right one.
Since neither we nor you know why this has happened and why now.

At best we might present more or less educated guesses which in themselves are signs of our compassion for a fellow trumpeter!

From my point of view trumpetplaying sometimes comes close to the chaos theory - where the basic assumption goes "the outcome of a process is sensitively dependent on the conditions existing at the very beginning of the process". Hence it might be extremely difficult or even impossible to predict an outcome if you do not analyze the basic settings.

We, and you know that prior to the switch everything seemed to be in order.

But what order?

Might it be that this sudden lack of vibrations was about to happen because of some unknown reason? A slow accumulation of "chops destroying factors" bound to surface sooner or later??
What happened to your chops during the replacement?

Smaller sound? Same mpc same guy. Mouthpiece likely a constant variable (if an exact copy). Leaving you as the possibly changing variable.

So again - reflect or/and get the help of a qualified "other".
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
trumpetchops wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Yeah, "compensate without thinking about it" - creative idea. As when you sprain an ankle then developing a sore back in your efforts to avoid hurting too much when walking.
Warming up the wrong way? You seem to be a seasoned guy so why should that happen now?
Too much smile? The BE method recommends the "angry old man look" while at the same time unlocking the corners. Tricky business.

But - something seems to have changed as your 'regime' worked in the past.
Question is what!


How do I fix the problem?


By working face to face with a qualified teacher.


I'm not sure how to qualify the teacher. Since you brought it up, Do you know one?
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Joe Spitzer
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some help Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
Hello,

I'll give a little backstory so you have something to go by.

I'm 63 years old and a strong player. I play a lot of big band lead and classical type stuff. I use two mouthpieces. A while back my lead MP was damaged. It was custom made for me. I called the maker and they sent a new one. It was a little different than the old one. I used it anyway because it was close.

I started having trouble with the notes not coming out around high C. The buzz just stopped and, I had trouble with my legit playing. I decided that the two MP were too different and got a new lead that was identical to the damaged one.

Problem solved until last night. Playing lead and the sound just shut off. I wasn't tired and it happened in the second tune. I changed to my other MP and was able to play, just with a smaller sound.

My conclusion is that maybe I'm not warming up properly. If so, I don't know what the proper warm up is. My lips have to be swelling to stop the buzz. Why? What changed? Ideas?


How was your old mouthpiece damaged?
The rim? The shank?
Any chance of salvaging the old mouthpiece?
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone interested, the problem has lessened but still there.

Being my own teacher, I think the problem was caused by too much hard playing without enough warm up. The lips get firm and can't vibrate. Today I played mostly in the staff. Tomorrow I will do the same. I actually won't have to play lead until Thursday. I'll post after and let you know if the rest worked.
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Joe Spitzer
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"the problem was caused by too much hard playing".
Amen to that!

"In other words 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 you" to paraphrase Frankie! Kind of a short bout of overuse (=blowing in spite of malfunctioning chops).

Happens all the time without us really noticing. One day everything in order - next day when you begin practising lips feel kind of unresponsive - this is a sign!

Also: I try to relax my chops after each and every rehearsal/concert/gig - all athletes do the same; stretching is extremely important. I´ve found that for me blowing gentle double pedals does the sufficient stretching.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played some lead tonight. Still not back but, much better.
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Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.
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