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Cardwell Prototype Reynolds ERA?



 
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King_Conng
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:02 am    Post subject: Cardwell Prototype Reynolds ERA? Reply with quote

Help needed for more info and thoughts on my C trumpet made by Reynolds with Cardwell history.
The serial number is 217xxx from 1965, and I snagged it for a premium when stock from a store was being liquidated years ago. However when I purchased the horn the previous bell was smashed beyond repair (there is limited bracing on the trumpet due to the tunable bell design, so its fragile), and a tech was able to fit a similar holton bell to the tunable bell system to give it one. It plays great after the tech went through it, and has since turned a dark amber and probably needs a cleaning soon. The trumpet is currently fitted with a bach leadpipe and other main tuning slide made into one piece, however it also came with what was explained as its original leadpipe and main tuning slide, with US PAT 3507181 stamped on the reciever (Reynolds style). The interesting thing is that the main tuning slide was fitted with a water key bracket but never had its water hey hole drilled, and the soldered areas aren't buffed on the entire piece (Like NOS). The entire horn is still in raw brass. I know some of the history surronding W T Cardwell and his patent on trumpet leadpipes filed in 1967, and have read his work published in 1966 by the National Institute of Physics the "Working Theory of Trumpet Air Column Design". There is referenced that Cardwell made 4 trumpets, two of which became the Reynolds Era and Olds CHR made for a few years in the 70s before the lawsuit from Yamaha over the tunable bell design by Schilke. I believe this to be one of those 4 prototype trumpets, although some work has been done in the past to fit the bach leadpipe. Any more info or thoughts on this piece of history would be greatly appreciated. I tried contacting the FE Olds store in NJ but they are temporarily closed, and Contempora Corner takes a while.

The entire second valve crook and tubing has been faced perpendicular from the valve block (like other c trumpets) and a thumb hook present on the first slide, and reversed third slide with ring as well. Also some work done around where the leadpipe meets the valve block. All for c trumpet and everything still in raw brass with only one dent on the first slide crook like how it bought it. The second and third valve appear original with no serial number stamped on the spring barrel, but the first valve has since been replaced is suppose with an olds trumpet valve 213xxx from 1956. Super tight tolerances on the valves, even though they look worn. The only thing I've had added is place an adjustable finger ring into the original tunable bell slide brace to hold my pointer finger when playing, visibile with my other gig horns (Blessing Super Artist, Bach Strad Cornet) (and some NOS cornet and trumpet leadpipes later purchased seperately) in thier Fanfare Caseworks flight case.
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Last edited by King_Conng on Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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King_Conng
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the pictures, they didn't save to the hosting website profile beforehand.












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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try asking KT Skinsnes at Stomvi. He knew Cardwell and might have some knowledge.

It's weird that the 2nd and 3rd valve main tuning slide knuckles have been chopped off and replaced with patch-style replacements. I'm curious why they would do it to the 3rd knuckle, unless it was cracked really badly.
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King_Conng
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
I'm curious why they would do it to the 3rd knuckle, unless it was cracked really badly.


I have wondered the same thing. The originally produced Reynolds ERA and Olds CHR had one continuos piece of tubing from reciever bent around to a ferrule connecting it to the the valve block at the 3rd knuckle. From his work I've read, Cardwell really liked to test the "air column" inside tubing and resulting frequencies from tubing changes and taper. We thought maybe this horn had one similar leadpipe at some point directly attached to the casing as the knucle (with no ferrule) and there were problems so it changed to that design (one-piece tubing and valve block knuckle seperated by a ferrule) used in production. And therefore this trumpet is now like that, and the leadpipe with the stamped patent number is still with it after being used and replaced with it current setup. When the tech went over the horn and did a PVA, he noted the work around the knucles and slides was done well and aligned/port-matched. The valve casings dont show any signs from the inside that work was done either.

It is too bad we lost Cardwell about 10 years ago now, I've enjoyed researching his work and going through leads on this horn. Thanks for the tip on Mr Skinsnes, is there a best method anyone knows to contact him?
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jrpbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The man who can answer all your questions is R. Dale Olson. He worked for Olds at the time and developed the Olds ERA / Reynolds trumpet with Bill Cardwell. I will see what he has to say and post an answer.

They didn't make a C trumpet, so what you have is some kind of modified valve set with other parts added on. Any original acoustic design by Cardwell is long gone as the bell and lead pipe were an integral part of it.

Don't bother with the current Olds company. They purchased the name and are now abusing it by selling shiny Asian brass things. They will know nothing about the real Olds.
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jrpbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the reply that I got from Dale Olson on those models:

The Reynolds ERA and Olds CHR were virtually identical horns, both of which I was intimately involved with in conjunction with Bill Cardwell. In fact, both Bill and I received royalty checks for every horn sold. The full history is rather complex and lengthy, but clearly available in my memory. Some of the materials now in my library will, some day, be included in a book on Olds I sporadically work on. They contain many communications between CMI and both Bill and me, our original contract, and even the communication from Bill to CMI to terminate the contract due to low production by CMI, that failed to reach minimums defined within the contract. Additionally, I have documents that constitute the history of Bill and my contract with CMI, royalty payments, etc. At this point, all of this material is in my personal library in Fullerton. Currently, I am in Texas, but plan to begin work on my library upon my return to California in a few weeks.

As brief background, Bill and I were very close friends with whom I engaged in research for about 20 or so years. The ERA ("Extended Range Altissimo") and CHR ("Custom High Register"), two absolutely terrible horn names created by the CMI marketing people, were both based upon Bill's 1970 U.S. Patent (#3,505,181), 21 April 1970. Jon, this patent is highly (repeat highly) important in the 20th. Century literature related to brass instrument technology, although virtually unknown by most players and teachers, and even the "gurus" (who blindly cut horns down from a Bb to a C!!!).

Perhaps the most informative current book on musical instrument acoustics is by Murray Campbell and Clive Greated, of University of Edinburgh. Campbell and Greated cite Bill's patent as being of considerable importance.

To my recall, we never made a "C" trumpet in either the Olds CHR or Reynolds ERA lines. To "modify" a Bb to a C would completely destroy the proportions and geometry of the tapered sections and would have only been carried out by one who did not understand the design of the instrument.

Both the CHR and ERA were, in totality, very low production and, as a result, are today rare. I have one completed trumpet of this design
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King_Conng
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much for contacting Mr Olson to get some insight on my horn. That is interesting how CMI and them worked together om producing the different models.

jrpbrass wrote:
To my recall, we never made a "C" trumpet in either the Olds CHR or Reynolds ERA lines. To "modify" a Bb to a C would completely destroy the proportions and geometry of the tapered sections and would have only been carried out by one who did not understand the design of the instrument.

Both the CHR and ERA were, in totality, very low production and, as a result, are today rare. I have one completed trumpet of this design


Its too bad it turns out is was modified to C, at least the leadpipe and parts was still saved seperately whenever that was done . Again the leadpipe still looks like NOS not like an official production model. It is a good player regardless, enough to be one of my main horns at least . Would the first trumpets made have the patent number stamped on the reciever like mine? I've looked at examples of production model Reynolds ERA and Olds CHR and there isnt a patent number stamped anywhere (but understandable since they were produced in conjunction with the production company). I watched a video Stomvi produced that discusses the horns after trying to contact them, found on YT with some other similar videos after searching. The search continues if anyone else knows, I could not find anything on other people involved like a Mr Bast that continues Cardwell's experimentation.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I remember Roy Lawler once stating (well, writing, either on a version of his website or in a BB post) that he had his own version of the CHR bell that he felt was an improvement.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrpbrass wrote:
Here is the reply that I got from Dale Olson on those models:

The Reynolds ERA and Olds CHR were virtually identical horns, both of which I was intimately involved with in conjunction with Bill Cardwell. In fact, both Bill and I received royalty checks for every horn sold. The full history is rather complex and lengthy, but clearly available in my memory. Some of the materials now in my library will, some day, be included in a book on Olds I sporadically work on. They contain many communications between CMI and both Bill and me, our original contract, and even the communication from Bill to CMI to terminate the contract due to low production by CMI, that failed to reach minimums defined within the contract. Additionally, I have documents that constitute the history of Bill and my contract with CMI, royalty payments, etc. At this point, all of this material is in my personal library in Fullerton. Currently, I am in Texas, but plan to begin work on my library upon my return to California in a few weeks.

....[more history follows in the original post]


Threads like this make it worthwhile to continue to peruse Trumpet Herald. I love learning and reading about history like this.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny that this subject should come up just now. This past Wednesday, I went over to see Jack Kanstul at his home in Mesa to pay for a mouthpiece top I bought from him and return two others that I borrowed for assessment, but did not purchase. Our conversation eventually touched on the Kanstul 1410 Bb/C convertible trumpet that Zig developed in 2010-11. Jack asked, "Is that the one with the Cardwell bell?" and of course it is.

I was given the privilege of reviewing the 1410 when Kanstul released it for sale in the US and I published an article here on TH, which I'll link below just in case anyone wants to read it. I wonder if your horn used the same bell and lead pipe.

I never got Zig to disclose which of his mandrels he used for the lead pipe, but I imagine Kanstul's shop records would tell, if those records still exist. The bell was formed on the mandrel developed at Olds by Dale Olsen, Bill Cardwell and Irving Bush, according to Zig. He purchased said mandrel at the Olds factory auction, kept it in the Kanstul attic until 2010 or 2011 when he decided to make the convertible.

What I remember about the horn is that, in its C configuration, it was the most in-tune with itself of any trumpet I've ever played. I tried playing 4th line D, Eb and E to compare 4th and 5th partials. I could not discern any variation in pitch between alternate fingerings and there was no need to use one over the other, pitch wise. The horn had a tone that was more descant in nature than the typical Bach or Yamaha. Pure, lovely, rich and never shrill, it was like a really good operatic soprano singer.

Perhaps, B.A.C. could supply more information about the Cardwell bell tooling, or maybe even produce a bell and lead pipe for your horn.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107249=1410+conservatory
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King_Conng
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I was given the privilege of reviewing the 1410 when Kanstul released it for sale in the US and I published an article here on TH, which I'll link below just in case anyone wants to read it. I wonder if your horn used the same bell and lead pipe.

I never got Zig to disclose which of his mandrels he used for the lead pipe, but I imagine Kanstul's shop records would tell, if those records still exist. The bell was formed on the mandrel developed at Olds by Dale Olsen, Bill Cardwell and Irving Bush, according to Zig. He purchased said mandrel at the Olds factory auction, kept it in the Kanstul attic until 2010 or 2011 when he decided to make the convertible.

Perhaps, B.A.C. could supply more information about the Cardwell bell tooling, or maybe even produce a bell and lead pipe for your horn.


Wow I wondered where the tooling went, makes sense. Another part of the history answered, I'll see what they say about a bell. The bell flare/dimensions look similar to the original one on this horn. I enjoyed reading your review, and can say the same, this trumpet is right on the money with intonation, I've found it great for faster-paced higher playing work. Maybe the bach leadpipe on it now improved that aspect somewhat. I believe it was the "Bach 37" or "850 Hz" type bell that was on this particular trumpet instead of the production-mode "2000Hz" bell though it was hard to tell since it was smashed into oblivion. The Holton bell on it now was the closest to them in-beween the Bach 37 and 2000Hz playing-wise, with a gradual even flare until it flares out the last few inches like the 850Hz bell profile. It has bit tighter wrap to the crook so it doesnt sit as tall/level with the upper bell rail, and allows the bell it to freely ring, with my left pointer placed above in the adjustable ring placed in the tuning rail.
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