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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:38 pm Post subject: Anyone flugel players double on F or Eb lower pitched horns? |
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Since I am the only brass player in my ten-piece chamber group for classical, pop and jazz, and we are 'treble-heavy'**, I wind up playing flugelhorn a lot. That's fine, but if I wanted to go lower, what would you recommend?
I don't want to use a euphonium etc. as it interferes too much with my trumpet embouchure. Horns in the middle register-wise, though, are a possibility and I have tried them a long time ago: mellophonium in 1964; a curved old mellophone, 1965; an alto horn, 1972, and a French horn, 1974. Man, that old mellophone was a blast for jazz solos. Wish I still had that.
I'm assuming there has been some development in these instruments since then. In particular, the newer mellophones look promising even if they are called 'marching'. Videos I've watched indicate the sound is not unlike a low flugel, and intonation isn't as horrible as it was back then, especially with the Kanstul trigger that adjusts the whole tube.
Does anyone here have experience in a similar position and have guidance for me? I could put a couple of thousand into a new instrument. Thanks!
** instrumentation is four strings (violin, viola, cello, double bass), two flutes, two clarinets, and me on anything in my signature below. I have to do all the orchestration. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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French Horn seems the most obvious (and familiar) choice. I assume it would complement the strings quite easily. Trombone would be my next choice but then you have to deal with the big mouthpiece again. I do know a trumpet player who has a lot of fun doubling on the alto horn.
How about scoring a 4-valve flugel? That'd buy you a few lower notes.
FWIW I love playing the French Horn. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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That's true, a 4-valve flugel and a thin strip of duct tape would do nicely!
Thanks for your advice; much appreciated. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1923 Location: WI
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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This website might give you some useful information:
http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/mellophone/ _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I played a lot of Eb and F horn parts on my 4-valve flugelhorn back in college.
But since you're thinking of buying a horn, I wonder if alto horn (tenor horn) might be better than a marching mellophone for what you're planning. I've played some alto horn using a flugelhorn mouthpiece, although I realize a legitimate tenor horn player might balk at that. But for me, as an occasional player, it makes the transition from trumpet very easy. Or just get an alto horn mouthpiece and go for broke.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9024 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Alto Horm? Nice register and if you don't want to use the larger mouthpiece, you can substitute with a French horn mpc. I played with this set-up in community band for about a year and no one noticed. And you get killer range. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1923 Location: WI
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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The link I provided discusses alto horns as well as mellophones (and some other variants besides). _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I double on trumpet, euphonium, marching trombone and tuba. I used to play french horn and still own one. However, the horn does not work for me doubling. Everything else works fine. Further, since I adjust everything I play to Bb instrument in treble clef, it makes life pretty easy. They are all just a different octave. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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romajore Regular Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 78
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:38 am Post subject: |
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While the trumpet family are my primary instruments, I have doubled on many of the alto instruments in the last 5 years as the need arose. Here are some thoughts.
French horn - Can’t beat the sound, range, availability of instruments and music. I played horn through high school, so switching to using the left hand and dealing with all the tuning slides and alternate fingerings was easier for me than someone who never played horn before. 3 years in community band because there were 18 trumpets an 2 horns. It is the hardest of the choices to play for most doublers.
Mellophone - I used a Yamaha YMP-204. Most in tune mello I played. Used to cover alto parts in quartets and trios during COVID. I found the Hammond mouthpieces worked best. Probably easiest transition.
Mellophonium - the Stan Kenton Conn version. Manageable, fun, but lots harder to play in tune. I liked the Legends copy of Tony Scodwells mouthpiece best on this instrument, though it is a little smaller ID than I normally play. Really only played this one for fun not in ensembles.
Alto horn - picked up a used Packer-372 model. Really nice instrument. Love this instrument with a Wick 3 mouthpiece. What a sound. Unless you’re playing in a BBB, you have to do a lot of transposing since it’s in E-flat. Same transposition as C parts on a Bb trumpet so pretty easy to do.
Altonium - this one I played in HS marching band many years ago. Bell forward, baritone style design. Ok, but not great.
Good luck |
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bean_counter Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 Posts: 125 Location: Oswego, IL
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:30 am Post subject: |
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I have doubled Bb cornet and Eb alto a number of times for the civil war brass band I play in. Alto (aka tenor horn in British brass band) is close enough that it doesn't mess with my embouchure. I had a C/Bb bugle with a non-standard receiver, an alto mouthpiece fit. Huge cup for the horn (and challenging) but worked fine.
Baritone - nope, can't do it.
As an amateur, my main issue when changing between them is: "where is my register"?. _________________ Kevin Mc
Strad 180s37 (07 'True Bach'), Schilke 18 or 18B4
anon OTS Bb Saxhorn, Berliner valves c. 1860
Eclipse cornet (Yellow, Bauerfeind) DW 4B Heritage
Cousnon clairon Bb
'60s Besson tenor horn DW 3 |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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bean_counter wrote: | Baritone - nope, can't do it. |
I'd all but forgotten about the baritone. The front bell "American" baritone looks to be all but obsolete now. My high school still used them in the late 70s. I used to be able to play one some. Given a relatively recent failure to play the tenor sackbut, I suspect I can no longer wrangle mouthpieces that large. More likely that I could swing the alto/tenor horn given that some folks here are succeeding with either flugel or French horn mouthpieces _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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These are all great posts, and I thank you all. I did read the info on the provided links.
I've nearly forgotten, but during college 50 years ago(!), I tried almost everything in the brass family. In addition to my list above of tenor-range instruments, I've played tuba, baritone, valve trombone, a bit of slide trombone, even a soprano trombone pitched in the trumpet register.
The comment above that matches my research best is by romajore about the Yamaha YMP-204, and the "alto parts in quartets and trios" plus the intonation. I've never tried a new-design mellophone. I think this may be where I will look next. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah.
Eb Tenor (Alto, whatever) horn.
Bb Inderbinen Basso (effectively a bass cornet).
Best teacher I had insisted everybody double on "something" with a different mouthpiece. Claim was that when you go to the gym, even if you're just exercising legs, you don't do just one exercise.
I swear by it. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:57 am Post subject: |
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"That's true, a 4-valve flugel and a thin strip of duct tape would do nicely!"
Well, not quite. Keeping the 4th valve taped down DOES put the Flugel in the Key of F, but then all the other valve loops would be way too short for the lower pitch. You may be able to extend the valve slides enough to compensate or you could have a brass tech or instrument builder extend the valve slides. |
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BlessingInDisguise Regular Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2011 Posts: 13
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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I went on an alto brass kick some years ago and purchased a bunch of different examples.
While they all have their pros and cons, I feel that the best in my collection overall is the small-bell Donald E. Getzen (made by Willson) bell-front mellophone. Decent intonation, good sound. It looks like a big cornet. I use a Blessing 5 mellophone mouthpiece which is not massively larger than my trumpet size (around Bach 1).
That's the horn I would try first if I was in your musical situation. Sounds fun! _________________ Despite my user name, I am a Getzen fanboy. |
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romajore Regular Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 78
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Ancientram Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2019 Posts: 86 Location: Fairborn OH USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:48 pm Post subject: Horn/Flugel players |
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I have an F alto rotary flugel horn. I found it on eBay some time back. I believe it's a Miraphon/Mirafone. It came with a French horn mouthpiece and a small adapter to adapt the horn shank to a trumpet/flugel leadpipe. Actualy, one of my grand daughters has it at present, so I'm afraid I can't vouch for the range and intonation. They're few and far between and probably more available on the German version of eBay.
Steve |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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A number of years ago I cleaned up one of the DEG bell-front altos for a friend who had bought a batch of old UNLV instruments. They were then sold on ebay.
I have to say, I was tempted to buy that DEG alto. At the time I owned a Holton alto trumpet in F with an H-shaped extension slide for Eb, and a 1949 King altonium with slides for F and Eb, so I certainly didn't need another alto brass. And having played Eb tuba in college and Eb cornet later in life, I'm simply more comfortable on an Eb instrument.
The DEG alto was essentially unplayed and included a card in the case advertising the optional Eb main tuning slide (which was a tightly-wrapped thing that looked a little scary), but there was no Eb slide with the horn.
After I had cleaned it I plugged my Wick 3 tenor horn mouthpiece into the DEG, and... wow. It was impressive. I simply couldn't justify buying an F-only horn when I already had two F/Eb horns, but that DEG kicked both my other horn's butts in F. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:52 am Post subject: |
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I have the Jupiter mellophone--I bought it used for $100 and put another $100 into it. I have a Hammond mouthpiece for it also. I also saw a Jupiter tenor horn selling nearby for around $200. I'm trying to decide if I can justify another instrument. That said, if I were in a group that needed a french horn I'd likely just get a used student french horn and try that. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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