Embouchure changing for every note

[MrBob8888]

I’m currently a sophomore trumpet performance major at Baldwin Wallace, and recently my teacher has been telling me that I keep moving my top lip whenever I play or change notes. I’ve spent hours trying to figure out any way to not do this, as it’s affecting my endurance, range, and tone, and I can’t seem to figure out anything that works. I’ve tried the whole Stevens-Costello embouchure thing, but I’m naturally a downstream player and changing to upstream really diminishes my tone and makes everything way more difficult. I’ve also noticed that changing my tongue shape to different vowels does nothing. Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is? The only thing I can think of is that I’m not relaxed enough, in which case, could anyone tell me anything that I can do to relax? Thanks in advance
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[CTrumpeter]

EDIT

[kehaulani]

The way you seem to be pulling in different directions makes me wonder if an integrated approach might work. Have you considered The Balanced Embouchure?
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[cheiden]

I can't know what the teacher is trying to achieve but in general, I'd be concerned with that advice. If you make a visible change with every note transition then you're likely to run out of adjustment. I don't doubt that the embouchure needs to change, but that the changes needs to be all but imperceptibly small.
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[JayKosta]

It might be that you are trying to establish the 'perfect' lip / embouchure for each individual note. True that some change lip adjustment of the lips is usually needed, but there shouldn't be actual mouthpiece movement on the lips unless the the note change is a very large interval. You need to find a 'useful' position for the mouthpiece on your lips that will enable note changes by small 'internal embouchure' adjustments.

Regarding use of your tongue - it is not really the physical position of the tongue (other people might disagree), but the muscular effort and resulting changes to your lips and jaw that result from forcing your tongue into those position. Just 'passively' moving your tongue won't give the desired results.
You should be able to feel some 'pull' or 'push' on your lips and jaw resulting from the tongue movement.

Regarding upstream / downstream / jaw - you should learn how to use and control your jaw and the distribution of mouthpiece rim pressure between the upper and lower lips.

My thoughts about 'basic embouchure' are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm

BTW - my wife is from Berea, and I attended a music clinic (Ed Lisk) at B-W many years ago.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Billy B]

[kehaulani]

I would assume he's had more than one conversation with his teacher. And that doesn't seem to be working.

@Mr. Bob, is this Baldwin Wallace's primary teacher or a Graduate Assistant?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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[Billy B]

[JayKosta]

I agree that the OP (BOB) should discuss this with his teacher.
Perhaps some of the items that we mention in this thread will help 'put into words' the concepts and actions that are involved.

'Talking to the teacher' can be very helpful, but it does require effective 2-way communication and understanding.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kalijah]

[abontrumpet]

[gwood66]

The video below helped reinforce the concept of minimal movement when changing notes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rguWZdqTmgY

The smallest distance between two notes is a half step. I would practice chromatics/Clarke 1 type exercise focused on minimizing movement.

If I recall there are also some efficiency exercises in John Daniels Special Studies.

Focus on the advice you are getting from your teacher, dont panic, and most of all dont start going down the embouchure over analysis rabbit hole.

My 2 cents for what its worth.
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[ttrumpett]

https://youtu.be/krORily35gg

Maybe try what Rex does in the first 10 seconds of this video. He is a monster player but still practices the basics. At first just bend down a half step and do the half-step-up fingering only. If doing the Ab fingering while trying to play a G is tough, skip it and start at F#, then F, etc, or low B…or middle B…wherever may be successful. If you get some bends working, try to do them at quieter dynamics over time. If your corners are pulling back making your lips thin, they to move them a few millimeters at a time inward and keep them firm while allowing for some cushion inside the mouthpiece, but without puckering/kissing formation. Ideally the trumpet/lips should react to the air stream without being forced.

John Daniel’s book is absolutely fantastic. He explains things really clearly and concisely. His poo-doo exercises are great for tone production and his flexibility/bending studies are amazing as well. I don’t have Rex Richardson’s new book yet, but I think I’ll buy it now…

I suggest trying out lots of different things people tell you. Pick one or two things and do them just 5-10 min per day for a few weeks. If it helps, keep doing it. If it doesn’t help, switch to something else, but give things a chance with consistency over a few weeks. Maybe pick one concept to do at the beginning of the day and another concept to do at the end of the day. In the middle of the day just try to make music. If you’re feeling ultra frustrated, put the horn down for a few minutes/hours. (My 20 year old self would have hated that last sentence.) Patience and persistence will be worth it in the long run! Good luck, you can do it!

[Craig Swartz]

Since the OP is seeking info from others besides his teacher (to whom he is paying considerable bucks, I assume), perhaps an easy way for some fairly universal info and help might come from purchasing the Irons "27 Groups..." and Colin "Advanced Lip Flexibilities...(Complete)", spend time reading/understanding the text/diagrams, begin working on the exercises and arrempt to add/apply those (probably) new skills to regular playing.

If there is any question concerning embouchure/facial movement while playing, it can easily be addressed by recording one's self and playing it back. For the most part, a vast majority of "us" have learned to use what seems to work since we began playing- in my case some 60 years ago. But if we hung on all of those years we likely hit a place where we were as "good" as we could get and the abilities needed left us behind because we didn't improve on our efficiency to move around the ever-increasing demands of pitch, range, and flexibility.

In the end, there is only so much difference in facial and oral (including tongue) movement that we can undergo while playing in various registers and volumes before we run out of "distance". This, along with how the breath is used dictates how high/low/loud/soft we can play, and for how long. Obviously, the less we work those muscles, the longer we'll be able to use them without adverse fatigue. And there are serious limitations to how fast we are able to make those changes if we're relying on muscles visible outside of the mouthpiece rim. The primary change must happen inside and behind the mouthpiece, where it likely won't be so obvious while looking in a mirror or at a video.

I've got to believe that the teacher can be of help here, but perhaps it is merely a communications issue. In any event, perhaps Irons or Colin can assist in the understanding. Good luck.

[Pops]

[stuartissimo]

[Pops]

Think about what each physical element does for your playing.

Some people think about using facial muscles and only facial muscles to play every note.
(I consider this to be the biggest problem a player could have.)

Cons
Regardless of embouchure played; using facial muscles and only facial muscles to play has less endurance than anything else we can do.
Players like Doc who played 12 hour days do NOT have magic muscles. They do something else so that they don't have to try to use muscles for every note change.
I have lots of students that are full time playing pros and they play anywhere from 8-14 hours a day every day. There is NO way to build that much muscle endurance. Something else is running things.

Another problem with using only facial muscles to play is that when playing a 2 octave C scale it has strained sounding notes at the top. Sometimes the strain starts as low as 4th line D.
The strained sound is because they are using such a high % of their facial muscles to play. They are simply so tense that the lips don't vibrate freely.

Great players have something else going on besides just using facial muscles to play.

Many players also have this problem and their range on any given breath is based on their starting note.
If they start on Low G they will not be able to play as high on that 1 breath as they could play if they started on 3rd space C. This is a sign that they have no consistent lip setpoint and play with multiple embouchures.
(I consider this to be the 2nd biggest problem a player could have.)

Most players don't understand the difference between anchor tonguing and tongue arch. The difference in results is so big that I actually don't know a great teacher that pushes arching the tongue.
Clarke talked about how dorsal tonguing (anchor tonguing) was helpful.
Maggio / MacBeth (who wrote the book),
Gordon with k tongue (anchor tonguing),
Even people like Stevens who wrote to NEVER arch the tongue, actually anchor tongued in his playing.
(Arching the tongue and anchor tonguing are NOTHING alike.)

Arching the tongue does not alter the lip to lip alignment. Anchor tonguing does alter lip alignment because it moves the tongue so much that the jaw moves.
It is the jaw movement that we care about but we use the anchor tonguing to cause it. In that way the jaw movement happens gradually and smoothly as we play higher and higher.

The forward arch also helps us to blow air to a smaller section of our lips as we get to the HISS tonguing. That makes less lip tissue vibrate helping our range.
There are a couple of articles about exciting less lip mass in upper register playing.
Also a book of findings from a study at the University of BC in 1975. That study showed that using a more narrow air stream played a higher note.

They used rubber lips and an air compressor. They checked the air speed and the air pressure at the end of the hose and then put the hose against the rubber lips. It played a note.

They pinched the hose (with a clamp I think) to make the air stream half as wide as before. They checked the air speed and pressure and had to go to the compressor to turn it down. They adjusted the compressor so that the air speed and pressure were the same as before they pinched the hose. They then put the hose against the rubber lips and the pitch it played was 1 octave higher.

When we anchor tongue in the upper register and make that Hiss or Siss or SSS or TSS sound (different teachers spell the syllable in different ways) we create a smaller air stream. The sides of the tongue touch the front of the mouth from above the gums to the lower teeth. It makes a funnel. It is wide at the top and narrow by the space between the teeth where then air goes to hit the lips.
Simple arching the tongue can't do the same because the tip of the tongue is not touching anything and there is no funnel from the top of the mouth to the teeth. The air that may have become focused is allowed to spread back out.

That is why the forward arch against the teeth and the tip always touching the lower teeth is so important. No tip touching means NO air stream focus.

This is just the bare bones basic idea of course. How we use breath support , how we use sound models, how and WHAT we practice, expanding our ideas of musicality and many other things come together to make a great player
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[kalijah]

[kehaulani]

The OP says moving his chops when he plays affects his "endurance, range, and tone "but that he "can’t seem to figure out anything that works". Could it be that he's looking in the wrong place?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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[fleming]

Assuming Jack Sutte is your teacher? Perhaps a deeper conversation with him is in order. He’s a smart guy, wonderful player, and it would be hard to find a better resource when it comes to learning to play the trumpet.

Looking for answers via this blog is not a great idea.

If you need more guidance, there are many, many excellent players and teachers in your neck of the woods.

Sadly, a number of very accomplished teachers and performers have decided to stop posting to this blog.