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trpt.hick Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2630
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Andy,
It is designed to build chops. It's like weightlifting to an athlete. All trumpet players need chops through some sort of method.
DH |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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andybharms wrote: | As I understand it, it is really very physically focused. I’m of the opinion that playing orchestral trumpet is 90% aural (intonation, transposition, style, sound quality), and physical interventions can really get in the way if we are too excited about that sort of thing. So while maybe not hurtful per se, it doesn’t seem as relevant as other approaches, unless there is some specific problem that a player might have that the method explicitly addresses. |
It's a matter of balance. Focusing on intonation, transposition, style, and sound quality is an advanced approach and if someone is not physically able to play he will not be able to focus on those anyway.
A player needs to be physically able to play what's on the stand in order to not worry about it and focus on just making music. Claude's approach may seem to heavily emphasize the physical aspects of playing, but those aspects are necessary in order to successfully play. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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CTrumpeter Regular Member
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Joined: 22 Feb 2022 Posts: 57
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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andybharms wrote: | As I understand it, it is really very physically focused. I’m of the opinion that playing orchestral trumpet is 90% aural (intonation, transposition, style, sound quality), and physical interventions can really get in the way if we are too excited about that sort of thing. So while maybe not hurtful per se, it doesn’t seem as relevant as other approaches, unless there is some specific problem that a player might have that the method explicitly addresses. |
Hi Andy,
Thanks for your perspective! I always appreciate a deep discussion. When I first approached the books, I also believed them to be very physically focused (I had the same experience with Stamp, too, but I was approaching it incorrectly at that time). Unfortunately, I think part of that stems from each of us interpreting his text differently, and sadly we can no longer speak to directly to Claude. However, I can say that now, with a more studious focus on my part, his books actually advocate for carefully training the fundamental mechanisms of production that, if properly studied and not rushed, eventually allow us total freedom in making music. Having recently revisited the Irons, as well as the new Pete Bond ”Singing Trumpet” material, both books touch on many points that are also discussed within Claude’s texts. While all of these books that I mentioned may discuss some of the physical aspects of production, I would argue that none of them advocate for physically “working” to play, and even reinforce some of the aspects of orchestral playing that you mentioned.
I wasn’t personally a student of Claude’s, I’m far too young unfortunately. However, I have to believe that his studies with H.L. Clarke directly influenced much of the ideas he had about the trumpet throughout his career. His lesson tapes with Susan Slaughter have fully convinced me that his texts are a very useful addition to any orchestral trumpeter’s library.
~ Best wishes |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2149 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I worked through the first third of the SA when I was young, but had only been to one masterclass with Claude and unfortunately did not get to study with him, though a couple of my friends had. I was doing it wrong--trying to blow my brains out and rushing through the lessons every week. I made it to about lesson 15 before I went out on a cruise gig. I tried to keep it up during the gig, but trying to find a place to practice (I usually went into the ship's empty movie theater) and the time to practice while still doing two shows and a dance set every night was too much. The lead trumpet in the band was a student of Claude's and after watching me struggle for a few weeks he gave me a 30-minute routine that consisted of some anchor tonguing and flexibilities. a warm-up routine that Claude had given him. Chop problems diminished quickly and I was able to make it through the shows and still be strong at the end of the night.
The SA method, going through all of it, especially without having eight hours a day, is a challenge. I'd love to make it all the way through the method but with my current available time it would take me at least four or five years to get through every lesson thoroughly. I'll be an old man by then. But I do try to incorporate what I learned from my bandmate and reading Claude's texts into the limited practice time I have now. The pedal tones and tonguing exercises have done more for my chops than just about anything else. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1799 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Claude Gordon was not a "High Note" trumpet teacher, not at all. He created well-rounded players that could play anything from Orchestral (including previously mentioned Susan Slaughter and Fred Sautter along with many others) to Jazz (Don Ellis, Paul Cacia, Bob Berenson and again, many others), to Rock and Roll (think Harry Kim of the Vine Street Horns who toured with Phil Collins and with Earth, Wind & Fire, and Lee Loughnane the trumpet player for Chicago). |
I don't imagine this is quite the implication you intended John, but I think it's worthing noting that Susan Slaughter was already the principal trumpet of a major orchestra before seeing Claude, so she was already playing at a very high level. (IE - she certainly wasn't "created" as a musician by his teachings.) I don't mean to take anything away from the value of what she got from Claude Gordon, but she also took lessons with Arnold Jacobs, Bernie Adelstein, Robert Nagel, and Laurie Frink. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 932 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:58 am Post subject: |
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It's true Susan took from others but I challenge anyone to listen to the lessons with her and Claude Gordon and see if you can hear the improvement. Also, listen for her concerns at the first lesson compared to how she is playing in later lessons. At the first lesson she asks Claude if she should agree to play the Brandenburg by the end of the orchestra season and if Claude thought she would have enough range to do that then. Claude's response was to not agree to do anything unless you know you are more than able right now.
The lessons are crash course lessons and might seem a little slow and boring since they are so long. However, notice the things Claude emphasizes with Susan like the kick of air on ascending notes and various other things. It's easy for some people to miss the vital details that are there.
There's also a video of Susan from my Brass Conferences where she mentions what she gained from Claude. When I had lunch with her at the 2006 ITG in New Jersey she told me that she did everything EXACTLY the way Claude assigned except for doing an extra week of K tongue instead of slurring on Clarke since she had not done K before. After a few months the trombones turned around and asked, "What have you been doing? You sound lots better." She kind of laughed about it that she wondered how she sounded before. One or two of those trombone players also studied with Claude but I can't find the names.
Here's the first lesson and you can listen to all the others with a free account on my site. https://www.purtle.com/audio/trumpet-lesson-claude-gordon-teaching-susan-slaughter-april-1981-lesson-1
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1799 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for reposting the link to the lesson, as well as for all the other fantastic trumpet content you've shared - it's a great contribution to our community!
I'm listening with interest to the lesson that you've shared, and I know that Susan Slaughter spoke elsewhere in interviews about taking valuable lessons from Claude Gordon - as I said, I don't mean to deny or dispute that. It is a fact, though, that she was the principal of the Toledo Symphony before winning the 4th chair in St. Louis, and after four years in the St. Louis Symphony, she moved up to principal. It's not like she had a flukey audition to win the principal chair and couldn't hold on to it without drastic help - she'd held a previous principal position, then moved up to St. Louis, and after years in the orchestra, her colleagues liked her playing enough to want her as principal. There's just no way she wasn't already fantastic for that to have happened.
I don't doubt that she did improve over the course of that lesson - even top players have areas where they can improve to get more consistent results, and I suspect you're aware that it's also not all that uncommon for top players to have stretches where, for one reason or another, they struggle, and need to get a "tune up" from someone to get back on track. I don't mean to take anything away from Claude's teaching, but I don't think it's fair or right to say he was responsible for her success. John probably didn't mean that either, because I'm sure he knows better, but someone who doesn't know the backstory might get the wrong idea from what he wrote. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 932 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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She studied a couple years. You really don’t hear the improvement in the one lesson but over time. I think that’s one of the things that trumpet players fall into in thinking they will take one lesson with a teacher instead of really studying. What made Claude significant was showing his students the process.
Listen to not just the first lesson but the others. I know it’s long but that’s where the value really is in those audio files. In the past I had shared them with my own students and even they missed the main point of the process and got caught up in looking for a secret bit of info.
Susan definitely played well before studying with Claude but you can definitely hear her get stronger, more flexible and have much more ease in the upper register. You can also hear her attacks change and get cleaner from all the K tonguing over time.
It might not be widely known that she didn’t even make it to a second round in a couple auditions for smaller orchestras like the Charlotte Symphony. Then, she had an incredibly discouraging audition when she placed in the top three for the NY Phil. The other two were Gil Johnson and Phil Smith, who won. What made it discouraging was that someone she knew told her that the moment she walked out from behind the curtain it was Zubin Mehta that said, “I’m not having a woman in my brass section!” That would definitely incite legal action now.
When Susan got her job with Slatkin she looked at it as her calling in life and worked on improving all the time. She wouldn’t teach lessons on gig days because her playing mattered more than anything else. These things were all told to me by Susan as I drove her and Harry Kim to my church to play a trumpet trio after my first brass conference. I wish I would have recorded all of our conversation. She’s a great player and super nice lady. Harry was so impressed with her sound and the two admired each other’s playing. It was very cool to hear that.
See what you discover after listening to all the sound files of her. The other ones will play when you login to my site with a free account.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1799 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting - thanks for that! |
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