Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:24 am Post subject:
So, you're saying that the air can go from the lungs, throat, mouth with tongue on the bottom of the mouth and out, is the same - air pressure from the lungs remaining constant - exiting air speed as when the tongue is raised? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:42 am Post subject:
Let's investigate 'air speed' to understand how it can be controlled, and how its 'feel' is often used for describing pitch control.
1) There is such a thing as 'air speed' - it's the physical velocity of the atoms/molecules in the air flow.
2) Air FLOW usually means some quantity (e.g. liters, cubic centimeters, etc.) of air that is passing through an opening - so the quantity per second can be determined and expressed.
3) In brass playing, the air speed is directly related to the air pressure in the mouth compared to the air pressure after the air has passed though the aperture.
This air speed is usually controlled by producing resistance to air flow though the aperture, and by the effort used to exhale the air.
4) To play 'high notes' it is necessary to adjust the lips so they will vibrate/pulsate quickly when air passes through the aperture. That lip adjustment increases the resistance to air flow, and the player increases the internal air pressure to provide enough force to overcome the resistance.
5) Many people seem to have a good sensation of the 'air speed' through the aperture, and instructing them to 'blow faster air' results in the player making lip adjustments to increase the resistance and to blow harder - both of which are needed to play higher pitches.
6) The air speed doesn't control the pitch, but it RESULTS from the aperture resistance and internal air pressure that IS needed to produce the pitch.
It seems that many people are able to 'do the right thing' by striving for 'faster air' than by thoughtful dual control of resistance and air pressure.
Light the Torches! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:03 am Post subject:
In the original post AV suggests that this tongue placement creates localized turbulence at the lips and that this is what facilitates playing higher. Air speed is not mentioned.
"Blowing firmly with the tongue in this position, through the spot occupied by the imaginary ball will create tremendous air turbulence even AT SOFT DYNAMICS."
I think it's routinely asserted that all the air inside the body uniform, that there can be no localized streams or vortices anywhere in the system, but I think this is the crux of OP. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
1) There is such a thing as 'air speed' - it's the physical velocity of the atoms/molecules in the air flow.
Flow velocity is the aggregate or net "drift" of the molecules through a flow path. The physical molecular velocity is actually MUCH higher than the flow velocity, even for zero flow.
Quote:
2) Air FLOW usually means some quantity (e.g. liters, cubic centimeters, etc.) of air that is passing through an opening - so the quantity per second can be determined and expressed.
You are describing volume, flow is volume per time, it is an instantaneous rate, and the actual volume is irrelevant as is the time. Only the instantaneous ratio is relevant.
Quote:
3) In brass playing, the air speed is directly related to the air pressure in the mouth compared to the air pressure after the air has passed though the aperture.
Not exactly. There is no "THE" air speed (it varies in the system). I assume you are describing the average air speed through an aperture. And yes, all things equal the pressure difference is the dominant factor.
Quote:
This air speed is usually controlled by producing resistance to air flow though the aperture, and by the effort used to exhale the air.
No. Adding resistance does not increase the air speed. It does limit the flow. Yes, exhalation effort increases the air pressure.
Quote:
4) To play 'high notes' it is necessary to adjust the lips so they will vibrate/pulsate quickly when air passes through the aperture. That lip adjustment increases the resistance to air flow, and the player increases the internal air pressure to provide enough force to overcome the resistance.
I assume by "vibrate/pulsate quickly" you mean at a greater frequency. The aperture does have a smaller average opening for more firmness, which does increase the frequency of pulsation along with flow resistance, and limits the flow. But it doesn't increase the flow velocity. Only increasing the exhalation effort will increase the air speed (independent of resistance or aperture size). But that also applies to dynamics on a constant pitch, so it is easy to dismiss that air-speed = pitch. That would make playing dynamics impossible on a constant pitch.
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5) Many people seem to have a good sensation of the 'air speed' through the aperture, and instructing them to 'blow faster air' results in the player making lip adjustments to increase the resistance and to blow harder - both of which are needed to play higher pitches.
Resistance is not the goal. Pitch is. Resistance reduces efficiency. As does high air speed. BOTH are a liability to tonal efficiency.
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6) The air speed doesn't control the pitch, but it RESULTS from the aperture resistance and internal air pressure that IS needed to produce the pitch. It seems that many people are able to 'do the right thing' by striving for 'faster air' than by thoughtful dual control of resistance and air pressure.
And you are hung up on resistance. Resistance does NOT increase the air speed or the air pressure. It limits the flow negatively. To limit the flow, by resistance, is to limit the power. That applies to any resistance in the flow path. Narrow throat, narrow oral space, or narrowed aperture.
The tonal resistance of the instrument is also part of the resistance equation. More later.
[/quote]
Narrow throat, narrow oral space, or narrowed aperture.
How come I don't see a lot on methods talk about oral expansion. I mean, we hear about open throat... yawn to simulate what an open throat feels like, but when I get into squeakville, my face seems to contort a lot.
So are we just stretching everything even more in the oral cavity to make a larger difference in air pressure from inside the oral cavity vs the aperture our lips is letting out by doing so? The lips are just flapping around based on how taut they are and aperture size vs the air making them flap around correct?
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:12 am Post subject:
@kalijah - in layman's terms, how, then, would you tell someone to play higher? Not a scientific microcosm of how things do, or do not, work, but just what does a student do to play higher?
@cheiden - couldn't a groove be formed in the tongue-tip-behind-the-lower-teeth position, also? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Fire Dance" was composed in memory of Bill Chase and first featured on the "Road Father" album (Road Father was Chases's parents nick name for Woody Herman). This solo is incredible in that it is played within a set; it features range; improvisation; double and triple tonguing; and circular breathing (5:25) ... I believe Allen was 22 yoa at the time.)
wow, thanks Russell for posting that, i had not seen that before.
btw, i'm a small ID convert as well. makes life a lot easier. and Low is not an issue, but high just sizzles.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
...
And you are hung up on resistance. Resistance does NOT increase the air speed or the air pressure. It limits the flow negatively. To limit the flow, by resistance, is to limit the power. That applies to any resistance in the flow path. Narrow throat, narrow oral space, or narrowed aperture.
The tonal resistance of the instrument is also part of the resistance equation. More later.
----------------------------------------------------------
I am using the idea of 'resistance' in a way that might not be 'technically accurate' but which can be felt and understood by players.
I think that 'resistance' can be a useful consideration when trying to find the correct embouchure adjustment / posture for producing the desired pitch. It is important to adjust the lip 'firmness' for the pitch and also have the correct lip aperture size to produce the necessary internal air pressure. If the aperture does not give adequate resistance to air flow, then an 'air ball' will be blown which does not give the wanted result.
This seems like a good discussion - to increase knowledge about technical terms and considerations, and to get information about how people feel and express their sensations about playing. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
So are we just stretching everything even more in the oral cavity to make a larger difference in air pressure from inside the oral cavity vs the aperture our lips is letting out by doing so? The lips are just flapping around based on how taut they are and aperture size vs the air making them flap around correct?
There is not an advantage of pressure for making the oral space really large compared to small. But extra small and narrow, as in "hissing", becomes a detriment to air pressure reaching the lip aperture.
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
kehaulani wrote:
This is from Allen Vizutti. It blows my mind because my use of the tongue for high notes has always been "EEE" with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This puts it behind the upper teeth. Any observations/comments?
You are not missing anything. Based on his analogy you should be holding the BB with a portion of your tongue that is behind the tip, so the tip very well be behind the lower teeth. In the preceding paragraph he uses the phrase "tongue placement" and states it should be high and forward. Later in his book (pg 32) he talks about arching the tongue up and forward. On page 33 he lists "Arching the tongue high and forward for notes ascending above the staff" under The Essential Approach for Success. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Vizutti high-note Tongue position
This is a very nice description of Anchor Tonguing.
I remember a clinic where the previous presenters talked about Anchor Tonguing. Vizutti was the last one of the day. Some kid asked "how do you tongue"?
AV dropped his head and sighed. After 30-40 seconds he looked up and said "I anchor tongue; of course".
The of course said it all.
Pops
kehaulani wrote:
This is from Allen Vizutti. It blows my mind because my use of the tongue for high notes has always been "EEE" with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This puts it behind the upper teeth. Any observations/comments?
"Imagine a ball the size of a BB placed at the point where your two top front teeth meet at the gum line. The ball is held in place by your tongue, back from the tip so that the front of the tongue is touching the back of the front teeth. The contact point of the ball on the tongue can vary.
Blowing firmly with the tongue in this position, through the spot occupied by the imaginary ball will create tremendous air turbulence even AT SOFT DYNAMICS. Don't drop the ball by letting the tongue drop. Let the force of air create an opening. Experiment with simultaneously increasing air pressure and the firmness with which you hold the imaginary ball in place, still at a soft dynamic.
You should eventually experience production of some soft effortless upper register notes. Observe the degree of firmness with which you hold your tongue in place when you experience successful production of some upper notes. (This tongue position is basically effective for notes, 2-
ledger line high 'C' and above)"
_________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons:www.BbTrumpet.com
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 934 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:48 am Post subject:
Quote:
This is a very nice description of Anchor Tonguing.
I recall reading an article by Doc Severinsen in the early 1980s where he describes it EXACTLY the same way as his dad taught him to tongue. Allen Vizzutti was good friends with Doc since he was young and Allen's dad introduced him to Doc.
I believe that article was in Down Beat. I used to go to the library and read it in Junior High and High School. In 8th grade I heard someone describe it too at a music camp at the University Of The Pacific when I was hanging-out with the guy that got first chair and a college student that was our RA in the dorms. They both mentioned Clarke's Characteristic Studies and the description there and I bought it but it never made sense until hearing Claude Gordon explain it a year or two later and then developing it through practice and time spent on various exercises.
Many great players single tongue this way and it matters. For me, changing to K Tongue Modified single tonguing was one of the most significant items Claude Gordon changed along with moving my placement to from ¼ top lip to ⅔ top lip to get a more free vibration.
This way of single tonguing allows tongue level to work properly and the player to experience security and the definite feel for every note in a way not possible otherwise. Work on K tonguing will cause this to change in the player too. When tonguing correctly the very tip of the tongue is very similar with T, K, and slurring and that's also the significance for the use of models.
Anyone that places their hand in front of their mouth and breathes out with a Haaa sound compared to a Heee sound can feel what's going on.
Anyone that places their hand in front of their mouth and breathes out with a Haaa sound compared to a Heee sound can feel what's going on.
Thats right. The HAA does not interrupt the air flow. HEE narrows the flow path and resists the air flow when blowing into no downstream resistance. That reduces the flow AND air pressure downstream.
But when playing normally, that is, into the lip aperture PLUS instrument resistance, things are a bit different. A high tongue or "Hee" does not add energy or pressure to the air. It just doesn't.
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 206 Location: Tulsa, OK
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:24 am Post subject:
So if I am reading this correctly, the TIP of the tongue touches the BOTTOM teeth and the imaginary BB (at the teeth/gum meeting) on the TOP teeth is held in place by the forward part of the tongue, not the TIP of the tongue. Correct ?
Vizzutti is anchor tonguing. In the upper register, pressing the tongue forward against the rear of the front teeth and lips does not increase air speed. It narrows the air column down. It is far far easier for the lips to work with a tiny thread of high pressure air versus a large pipe of high pressure air. This is why it works, and why these cats make it look so easy. Because, it is easy. The tongue does the work so the chops can relax and vibrate. This is essence of Jerry Callet, by the way. _________________ Professional lower-split 3rd clarinet player.
It narrows the air column down. It is far far easier for the lips to work with a tiny thread of high-pressure air versus a large pipe of high-pressure air.
If you are referring to the air flow, the supply path generally does not dictate the flow amount of air. The posture of tensing the lips in a particular way while thrusting the tongue forward has a natural feel related to the native function of the mouth. There is indeed an advantage of limiting the outward force due to the air pressure bearing on all of the surrounding tissues such as the cheeks. It just makes it easier to hold things together.
But you are correct that the narrower path offers no "air-speed" or air pressure advantage in regard to the air "pulsing" out of the aperture. It actually has an attenuating effect on those.
TCE advocates (and others) often claim that the tongue "compresses" the air. It doesn't.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:11 am Post subject:
I anchor tongue as described by vizzutti with the imaginary BB etc. That is not how I would have thought to describe it, but the way he s describes it is what I do.
Now, if I lower my tongue and from an embouchure and blow like a low note, there is no sound of air rushing through the aperture. If I transition to a higher note, without blowing harder, just changing my tongue position, I hear air rushing like Shhhh…..and then if if I transition to an even higher setting it changes to sssssssssss.
So Kaliyah, are you saying that the sound of air making a shhhhh sound or a sssssss sound or no perceptible sound are all going the same speed? _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com www.youtube.com/lipshurt
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