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Bach Cornets... Underrated!


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chef8489
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 531
Location: Asheville nc

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:
WWBW will sell yuou a L bore 184. Now, how long one needs to wait forit remains to be seen.

FWIW, the 184ML does not "play small", although of course that is relative. The BBB trend is for some very big-playing horns, and the 184 is...less big.

But is it a l184g?
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I'd played a Bach 184ML for years in a British Brass Band with a matched set of Bach 184ML cornets. I don't play it anymore, simply because although it sounds like a cornet in my opinion and isn't really brighter, it has a different sound profile to a more typical British Brass Band cornet such as the Besson Sovereign/Prestige and Yamaha Maestro/Xeno/Neo.

I personally love my sound on my Bach 184ML, but it is a more concentrated cornet sound with more core whereas my sound the Yamaha Xeno I now play, is bigger and broader, and this simply fits in better with a section of Besson and Yamaha cornets.

Also, the Bach 184ML articulates differently. Articulations come over as cleaner and more definite. Personally I think that that is a good thing, but again it does not blend as well.

In a lot of ways, I think that the Bach 184ML is the perfect cornet, as although sounding like a cornet for more traditional cornet literature, owing to it having a more concentrated sound with more core, it also brightens and lightens well for playing things like big band numbers, show tunes and pop repertoire. I also used to use mine in a concert band and it worked great for the more varied repertoire.

It also responds to mouthpieces more like a trumpet owing to its different sound profile. A shallower mouthpiece just sounds brighter whereas on a more typical British Brass Band cornet like the Besson or Yamaha, there is risk of too shallow becoming harsher.

The Bach 184ML however has one annoyance in my opinion. Most British Brass Banders will be aware of the top A issue on especially the Yamaha Maestro, but also to a lesser extent on my Yamaha Xeno (I haven't played a Neo) and I believe the Besson Sovereign/Prestige (I haven't spent much time on these). Basically the top A does not centre as well and is not secure.

The Bach 184ML has this issue with the high C. Apparently the 184L does not have it. With my Bach 184ML, I have always found that there is a resistance node right at the position of the high C that you have to lip over or the note will want to grunge. Like I say, my band had a matched set. Since I owned my own, I didn't play any of the others, but my colleagues said that all of them have this annoying feature. I played this cornet as my primary horn from 1994 to 2011, so I learned to live with it, but it was the one thing I didn't like about this cornet. I don't much like the high A of my Yamaha Xeno that I have been playing since 2011, so it is no big deal.

Also although a ML bore, I found that my Bach 184ML actually has less resistance than my Yamaha Xeno, even though that has a comparatively huge bore size, so the Bach 184ML does not play small.|

All the best

Lou
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TiredChops
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just stumbled on this thread and thought I would share my Bach 184 experience.

I have always admired Bach 184 cornets and played one in my British Brass Band. Over time some of my band mates convinced me to get rid of my silver 184ML and get a “serious” cornet.

Thus, I started a long journey and owned several cornets including Getzen, Schilke, Besson and Yamaha. They were all nice horns, but I kept thinking about the 184 that I used to have.

One day I was surfing Ebay and I stumbled upon a listing for a 184 G. The description said it was “found in a closet”, and based on the serial number it was manufactured in the early 1990’s.

This wasn’t just any 184 G, it was an XL bore !! I never knew that Bach offered an XL bore, but I had to have it, so I clicked the “Buy it now” button without hesitation.

When the cornet arrived I was stunned at its perfect condition. I have purchased many new horns over the years and I could tell that this cornet had never been played. The valves and slides were not broken in, the spit valve cork looked brand new, and there was not a single blemish on the lacquer finish !!

My cornet is the most wonderful playing and sounding cornet I’ve ever had. The XL bore is wonderful. According to Bach, a ML bore is 0.459 and a L bore is 0.462 - Only 0.003 larger. But, the XL bore is 0.468 - 0.009 larger than the ML and 0.006 larger than the L bore. I really feel that the XL bore opens up the horn nicely. I was interested to see that each valve has an "X" stamped under the valve number (1,2, 3)

To put that in perspective, the XL 184 is still 0.001 smaller than a Yamaha Neo.

I’ve got to believe that this was a special order horn, but of course I don’t know. I treat it with great care as I don’t think it could ever be replaced.

Here is the Cornet:




And the all important XL designation:



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fleming
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Joined: 09 Nov 2022
Posts: 75
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:41 am    Post subject: Most underrated Reply with quote

Personally, I think the most underrated Bach cornet is the 181 ML. The fact that I have one for sale in no way colors my opinion……
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Winghorn
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Bach 184 ML certainly does not play small. It is not a trumpet, but a cornet and it should be played like one.

I hope to heaven that we won’t start seeing clips on YouTube of players forcing out double Gs and Cs on a cornet to try and impress the high school students. The trumpet clips are bad enough.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Removing the trigger opens up the horn to make it even more free blowing, in my experience.
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Alex Brain
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
A Bach 184 ML certainly does not play small. It is not a trumpet, but a cornet and it should be played like one.

I hope to heaven that we won’t start seeing clips on YouTube of players forcing out double Gs and Cs on a cornet to try and impress the high school students. The trumpet clips are bad enough.


The literature of Clarke, Levy and Bellstedt (to name but a few) is written all the way up to high/double Gs, so achieving that range is a legitimate factor in conquering those solos for cornet.

On the subject of Bach cornets, two of my favourite (and most inspirational) albums; 'Carnaval' with Wynton as the soloist and 'Fantasy' with Phil Cobb, are superlative demonstrations of this repertoire and, to the best of my knowledge, both recorded on Bach 184 cornets too.

My own attempt at contribution to the cornet literature, and also on a Bach 184, is here, for those who are interested:
Link

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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Removing the trigger opens up the horn to make it even more free blowing, in my experience.


I didn’t go quite that far, but putting a much weaker return spring on my 1st valve trigger noticeably opened up my large bore 184G. I have to include a current photo of it…lol


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fleming
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Joined: 09 Nov 2022
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Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:45 am    Post subject: Gerard Schwartz Reply with quote

Does anyone know what kind of cornet Gerard Schwartz played on his Cornet Favorites album?

One of my all time favorite recordings.

Just curious.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that he played a ML, standard Bach cornet with a 5C trumpet (!) mouthpiece.
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fleming
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:29 pm    Post subject: Thanks! Reply with quote

Thanks! That’s interesting
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex Brain wrote:
Winghorn wrote:
A Bach 184 ML certainly does not play small. It is not a trumpet, but a cornet and it should be played like one.

I hope to heaven that we won’t start seeing clips on YouTube of players forcing out double Gs and Cs on a cornet to try and impress the high school students. The trumpet clips are bad enough.


The literature of Clarke, Levy and Bellstedt (to name but a few) is written all the way up to high/double Gs, so achieving that range is a legitimate factor in conquering those solos for cornet.

On the subject of Bach cornets, two of my favourite (and most inspirational) albums; 'Carnaval' with Wynton as the soloist and 'Fantasy' with Phil Cobb, are superlative demonstrations of this repertoire and, to the best of my knowledge, both recorded on Bach 184 cornets too.

My own attempt at contribution to the cornet literature, and also on a Bach 184, is here, for those who are interested:
Link


My post referred to “forcing out” these high notes. A skillful player can make the extreme upper register sound musical, not just the ripping canvas sound so many unschooled players seem to exhibit.
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