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Materials and sound



 
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Trumpjerele
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:30 am    Post subject: Materials and sound Reply with quote

I just heard an interview with an acoustics expert who has started a saxophone mouthpiece company.

In the interview she said that the material the mouthpiece is made of has no impact on the sound, but the shape of the mouthpiece does. He also said that the same was true of the material of the instrument.

I think there is a consensus that there is no difference in sound between a silver plated mouthpiece and a gold plated one, I have not tried acrylic mouthpieces, but I also think it would be the same.

I often hear about different metal alloys for different parts of the trumpet, such as the bell, attributing different sound properties. Carolbrass for example is a brand that plays quite a bit with the metals in their instruments.

At the other extreme are the plastic instruments (Ptrumpet, Allora and many others), which admittedly sound like a trumpet, possibly not like a high-end trumpet but with a sufficiently characteristic sound.

The question is how much is it true that the materials with which the instruments are built influence their sound?
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Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
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krax
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Joined: 22 Apr 2007
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Location: Hofors, Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, saxophonists use to say that... And some acoustic experts too.

Since the idea is that the only thing that shapes the sound is the shaping of the tube, the air column. I think that even from their own point of view they're wrong. They assume that the surface structure of the material has no significance (i.e. that its significance is too little to care about), but the surface structure is different depending on what material is used and to me that is one part of what makes the small differences in the sound that we associate to different materials. The other part is how the material in question starts to vibrate with the air. Obviously a vibrating metal changes the shape of the tubing and the air column so if different materials vibrate slightly different, then that too makes a small difference to the sound. Added weight affects this too, like heavy valve caps.

I mean, the sound of the trumpet is the sound of the trumpet regardless of what material it is made of. The small differences we like to focus on clearly are very small, but they're there.

It is also quite clear that differences to the shape of the tubing make bigger impacts to the sound, think of for example Committee and Besson England bells with wide flares, but still, behind the bell one can certainly hear other things affect the sound too.
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Materials and sound Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:

The question is how much is it true that the materials with which the instruments are built influence their sound?


This is a really good question. It comes up every now and again. There are always good answers and there is always a lot of history and urban myth.

For me, this is a two-part question with a two-part answer, but first a little anecdotal story from the not-too distant past; twelve or thirteen years ago, I guess.

I was walking through the Kanstul factory one day (not sure why, probably a tour with someone I brought along) and met Zig Kanstul out on the floor back where they used to make bells. He had a roll of red brass, I think. They were making a run of Euphoniums with red brass bell flairs. Gorgeous instruments! Anyway, I asked him what effect the different materials had.

"Colors," was his answer.

That brings us to Part 1. Do materials make a difference from the player's perspective? Answer? Maybe. Another thing Zig would say is, "If you believe it makes a difference, then it does." Which is to say that the player's mind is powerful and belief itself plays a big part in the performance of an instrument.

Also, Byron Autrey suggested to me once that people don't hear things the same, and I agree. We all have different bodies with our own distinct shapes and structures that make it up. Just like electronic microphones and amplifiers, I going to guess that our ears pick up sound differently, responding to frequencies in individual ways. Plus, I think it's fair to say that we each have different skill levels when it comes to listening, just as we do playing our instruments. I've seen people awaken to new levels of sound, once someone helped them pay attention and hear in a way they hadn't before.

This is a good place to bring in Part 2. Does the audience hear a difference in sound based on the materials used in the instrument? Similar to my previous point, it depends on the listener. Myself, I can hear the difference a Sterling silver bell makes. I can hear when a player gels with a horn and when not. Generally though, different brass/copper alloys change the feel of the horn and how it responds, but not the sound. It may also change the projection of sound, but that one is still more of a hunch to me.
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are willing to join the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America you can find many discussions.

I would start with
Quote:


Acoustical characteristics of annealed French horn bell flares

B. Lawson, W. Lawson


Lawson also did work on different materials for french horn bells - can't seem to find a reference.

Studies really need to be done by "rubber" or electronic "lips" since a live player will unconciously modify the sound to more closely match their personal sound preference.

I'm not sure that the saxophone is the appropriate instrument for study since it's basically a bunch of holes surounded by a little brass trim.
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fleming
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Joined: 09 Nov 2022
Posts: 81
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Interesting article Reply with quote

http://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Brass_Clinic.html#Materials

Interesting article.
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