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Large Bore vs. Medium Bore


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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nvpliers wrote:
If all other horn characteristics are identical, except for the bore size...will one slot more easily than the other? Thinking say 0.459 vs 0.462.

Thanks!


All things being identical other than bore size, no I don't feel the bore size will have an effect on the slotting. The larger bore should feel more open and take more air, but if mouthpiece gap is correct and valves aligned, slotting should be the same in my opinion.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, 0.003" will disappear after a few slices of pizza and a beer at the gig, so .459 vs .462 is the definition of insignificant UNTIL you take into account the wall thickness. For Bach, the .459 bore was a thickening of the tube wall of his original preferred bore of .462" with the intent of adding more mass to the body of the horn and replicating the stability and additional high frequency damping of his .453" bore horns.

Dimension is almost trivial, it really does very little. And it certainly has NO effect on air required, as the mouthpiece throat is the regulator of volumetric flow. The one thing the bore size dimension does alter is the relative conicity ahead vs behind the mass of the valve block. A smaller bore places greater conicity after the valves while a larger bore places greater conicity, often achieved with step-changes instead, ahead of the block.

The more you expand the tubing as the wave initially forms, the greater the radiation of higher frequencies into the tube wall. This is what makes a cornet sound like a cornet, and a large bore cornet sound more like a cornet than a small bore one. Conversely, a small bore trumpet, having more of its conicity after the valve mass, will sound more "trumpety", because more of the highs make it to the inertial center of the horn.

The thing is, these tonal differences DO NOT manifest clearly for minor differences in bore, such as .459 vs .462. They show up a little when you start looking at .448 vs .464, and same-maker pairs of that scale, and don't really jump out at you until you start messing with bores like 0.422" or 0.485".

There are a great many elements involving total mass, placed mass, material density, material hardness, material thickness, acoustic coupling, independent resonators, leadpipe geometry, bell geometry, alignment of leadpipe to bell geometry, mouthpiece cup depth, mouthpiece cup shape, mouthpiece backbore geometry, and a host of others that will shape a horn's character that all tend to overshadow bore.

As for slotting - that's determined by the leadpipe-to-slide geometry, the interference characteristics of the bracing, and placement of mass at key locations to instill greater inertia - not bore diameter.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Large Bore vs. Medium Bore Reply with quote

E_Hi_Screamer15 wrote:
Large Bore vs. Medium Bore.
Which one gives a darker warmer sound?


A Vincent Bach Stradivarius 180/25 Large Bore sounds bright rather than a Vincent Bach 180/72 Vindabona Medium Bore since the shape of the 25 bell, which has a slow taper dictates the sound the bell deliveres.
The Vindabona 72 bell has a fast taper = big warm sound. It has nothing to do with the bore size.

Bore size says like nothing; my Antoine Courtois Balanced with a huge bore size (like .470) makes a very nice bright martial sound when I play the instrument.

I would be interested in the differences in sound / feel between the Schilke B2, B3 and B4: three differend bore sizes but all three share the same bell.
I think it's useless to compare a Conn 22B (medium bore) with a Bach 180/25 large bore, both horns with slow tapered bells and with totally different bore sizes but totally different build by totally different companies

Also please read this: https://www.getzen.com/2002/04/12/the-trumpet-and-its-bore-size-how-critical-is-it/
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nvpliers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhhh. Thank you ALL for excellent info. This is very helpful. I'm glad I asked the question. I want to read it over a few more times, to digest the science better. This brass world is fascinating!!

Oh and Christian K. Peters: Yeah....you're right. This is very old. I was just sensitive about how some forums were critical of unnecessarily creating new threads, so I hunted around for an existing thread that might contain some relevancy. But in hindsight, I probably should have started a new thread.

Thanks again all!!
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First of all, 0.003" will disappear after a few slices of pizza and a beer at the gig, so .459 vs .462 is the definition of insignificant .

Only if you limit the consumption of beer and pizza to when you are only playing a large bore horn.


Last edited by adagiotrumpet on Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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JWG
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bore size changes the potential energy within a brass instrument, because it determines the number of air molecules vibrating between the mouthpiece and bell sustaining the standing wave within the instrument.

I discovered that I enjoyed playing on my two extra large bore horns rather than my son's large bore and my daughter's medium large bore horns.

With more air molecules vibrating, you have greater opportunity to modulate the energy and have more expression.

A .459 bore horn has about .721 of a square inch diameter tube throughout the valve cluster.
A .462 bore horn has about .725 of a square inch diameter (about 0.5% larger than a .459 bore).
A .470 bore horn has about .738 of a square inch diameter (about 2.4% larger than a .459 bore).

While these differences seem minimal, multiplied by an estimated 40 inches of valve-cluster-sized tubing (of the approximate 78 inches of total length in a Bb trumpet), you get the following results:

A .459 bore horn has 28.84 cubic inches of air space in the valve cluster.
A .462 bore horn has 29 cubic inches of air space (again about 0.5% larger than a .459 bore).
A .470 bore horn has 29.52 cubic inches of air space (again about 2.4% larger than a .459 bore).

While these differences may seem immaterial, one must remember that there exists 4.4x10-to-the-20th-power air molecules per cubic inch or 440,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules.

So, I will take the 2.4% extra air molecules in my extra large bore horns, because that ends up being a lot more air molecules sustaining the standing wave upon which one's sound depends.
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nvpliers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty cool! Of course, I'm an engineer, so I get this!!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
Bore size changes the potential energy within a brass instrument, because it determines the number of air molecules vibrating between the mouthpiece and bell sustaining the standing wave within the instrument.

This is an interesting, albeit rather inconsequential in balance to the rest of the system as a whole, observation. If you take into account the mass of this volume of air relative to the mass of the tubing wall, that, especially if the wall thickness is not consistent from one bore build to another, becomes very interesting as the resonating air column, the source of a trumpet’s sound, resonates as it does at the reflection because of how it interacts with the horn around it.

Changes in the proportion of air to brass, and surface area of air to volume of air, will alter that interaction – significantly or trivially would then be the question. Typically, there are so many other factors, this one will be too weak to be significant.

Also, while the point remains valid, the math is a problem.

The cross-sectional area of a 0.459” diameter is 0.166 square inches, not 0.721

The length of the cylindrical bore of a trumpet that reaches claimed bore at the end of the leadpipe and maintains into the first half of the bell crook is 25”, not 40”.

The length of a Bb trumpet from mouthpiece throat to reflection at the rim is 58”, not 78”

25” of 459 bore = .166*25 = 4.15 cubic inches in just the cylindrical bore
25” of 470 bore = .174*25 = 4.34 cubic inches in just the cylindrical bore

The difference (excluding the effect on bell and leadpipe taper) between .459 bore and .470 bore volume is thus 0.19 cubic inches out of the some 13+ cubic inches of volume in the air column as a whole.
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I love stats…it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players." Jens Lindemann

https://allthingstrumpet.com/jens-lindemann-on-mouthpieces/
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nvpliers
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great quote!!
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Not being sarcastic, I really like all the numbers, too. An engineering degree is a hard thing in life to overcome.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:
An engineering degree is a hard thing in life to overcome.

Even harder is overcoming not having one (based on 22 years of doing the job before HR would finally admit to being one - and only because the bosses are scared I'll retire)
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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