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6335 Yamaha’s Benge?



 
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gtownlead
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:59 pm    Post subject: 6335 Yamaha’s Benge? Reply with quote

Was wondering if there is a lineage/similarities between the 6335 and Benge trumpets. Visually the all brass construction and single slide brace lend themselves to Benge over Bach. Any thoughts on similarities between the two?
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may find a lineage for many going back to the Besson.

Enjoy the research.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 6335 is descended from the 637, which evolved from the Schilke B5.,
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the 6335 was the first Yamaha to vary from the Schilke designed horns to make their “Bach style” horn. While it was successful (and a great horn) it was lighter than the Bach 37. The next incarnation was the 6335 heavy wall (predecessor to the current Xeno) which was more in line with the Bach.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as someone who played a Yamaha 6335 for about two decades and was their primary trumpet and who has played a Benge 3X for the better part of the next decade....

Kind of, but not really. All brass construction and a single brace? That's like saying two cars are pretty similar because they have 4 doors and a trunk.

If you look at lineage, sure. But that's mostly true of any modern trumpet. Benge started by really copying a good French Besson and that's basically his 3X model - his version of a ML bore F Besson. His other Bb models are either heavily derived from the large bore F Besson Meha (6X), or building on those foundations in various ways (2X, 5X, being the common examples).

Schilke was of course influenced by the F Besson (because every modern trumpet is), but also studied the works of Mahillon with regard to brass design, worked with Holton, Martin (part of designing the Martin Committee), and helped Benge get his start, before making his own designs. He didn't just chase after making a Besson, he had ideas on how to improve the trumpet in his own way.

If one were to plot the concepts of trumpet design with Besson in one corner and Bach in another (though early Bachs were, of course, heavily influenced by Bessons), then Schilke is more toward the Besson end than the Bach end, in general. You get that sense when you play the classic Schilke Bb models as well in the B-series (B1, B3, B6).

So, Schilke was big influence with early Yamaha designs, being a consultant for them for nearly two decades and designing many of their early 3 digit models.

The 6335 comes from a time shortly after this period. Some people feel like it's one of the post-Schilke models where they're are going after more of the Bach idea since Bach was the dominant brand at the time. On the other hand, it feels... less Bach-like than the Yamaha models that came after it (Mark II, first Xeno generations). I haven't played much of the earlier 3 digit Schilke model Yamahas, so it's hard for me to say, exactly. If anything, it's kind of a transitional model, when they were kind of moving on from the Schilke designs in some of their horns (but not all), but maybe still had some aspects.

In my experience, the 6335 doesn't play as stiff or locked in as a typical Bach 37. The intonation is better, the typical problem notes are not terribly problematic. It's a reasonably responsive and flexible horn. I've had many others think that it plays pretty well. Some have also thought it plays a bit tighter, it's hard for me to say as it's the horn I did a lot of my development on. The sound is much more on the Bach spectrum, whatever that means.

The Benge is quite responsive and flexible as a horn, a fair bit more than the Yamaha. It doesn't slot like a Bach at all, the opposite of stiff and locked in. It slots decently, but it's not a hard kind of slotting. It has intonation issues on the typically problematic notes (D, Eb, E) that are not insignificant, but because of the flexibility of the horn, are workable. It's pretty free blowing, but not to the degree of some exceptionally open or large bore horns. It's not a chore to play, at all. The sound is much more lighter and brighter and a little transparent in a way that a Bach is not. Bach deliberately moved away from that Besson sound profile with his designs. It's a lovely sound, in my opinion, but different than any Bach 37, 43, or 72 - or my Yamaha. It blends just fine with those horns, but it's got it's own character and color.

That's all I have for now.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
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Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
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trompette229
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn’t just giving an opinion about the lineage of the 6335, that is actually it’s history and the aim of Yamaha at the time. It was a specific planned departure of its Bb and C trumpets to create something more in line with the popularity of the Bach instruments.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trompette229 wrote:
I wasn’t just giving an opinion about the lineage of the 6335, that is actually it’s history and the aim of Yamaha at the time. It was a specific planned departure of its Bb and C trumpets to create something more in line with the popularity of the Bach instruments.

I didn't see your comment as I was likely typing mine at the time. However, I'm not disputing that, as I was around then.

I haven't played the Yamaha models that preceded it much, but I have played the ones that followed it. The 6335 doesn't play as stiff and "Bach-like" as some of those. What elements were carried over from the Schilke era and what were changed to be more Bach-like/mainstream, I can't say. I can only say how I think it plays.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My backup horn is a 6335, and I really do not feel that it plays like a Bach, more Schilke than Bach, but not really either. Somewhere in between. I have only played one Bach trumpet that I liked (not comment on anything but personal taste here). I can see that perhaps the 6335 moves in a slightly Bachish direction from the original Schilke designs, but not all that far. Perhaps it is the later Yamaha designs that make this apparent.
By messing with the gap and openness of the mouthpiece, I was able to get the 6335 to play like I like (perhaps more Schilke like, since my main Bb is a Schilke and I did not want the transition to be jarring). And of course it all probably depends on what Bach and Schilke you are comparing to. My Schilke comparison is my X3L with the Sandoval modifications.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
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