Joined: 09 Oct 2022 Posts: 18 Location: Walbridge, Oh
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:30 pm Post subject: Embouchure question
A little background - I'm a comeback player after 45 years off. I've been back at it for 2 months. I've been trying to focus on tone and endurance. Things are going pretty well. My usable range tops out at G above the staff (when my lip isn't tired).
The last couple of weeks I've spent about 5 minutes out of each practice (3 times a day 25-30 minutes each) trying to increase range. I can squeak out a high C or B flat sometimes. When trying different techniques I stumbled upon something I don't understand.
I hold my horn pretty much straight out from my lips (90 degrees). If I tilt my head down a little and raise my horn a little (above 90 degrees) I can sometimes hit notes above high C, sometimes so high I don't know what note it is, and I don't have to use any more pressure than I do for a G above the staff.
These are not usable notes at this point, but I would like to understand better what raising the horn does to my embouchure. Perhaps if I understand better what is happening it might help me increase my range in the future.
Thanks. _________________ Started back on 10/10/2022 after 45 years off.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1169 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:28 pm Post subject:
It's almost always worth experimenting to see what effect different angles have. There are different embouchure types - see the Reinhardt Forum here - and it sounds like maybe your chops are upstream, with more bottom lip than top? That would typically do what you're describing. In Reinhardt terms that's a Type IV. I teach this stuff by Skype if you're interested.
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Embouchure question
taswalb wrote:
A little background - I'm a comeback player after 45 years off. I've been back at it for 2 months. I've been trying to focus on tone and endurance. Things are going pretty well. My usable range tops out at G above the staff (when my lip isn't tired).
The last couple of weeks I've spent about 5 minutes out of each practice (3 times a day 25-30 minutes each) trying to increase range. I can squeak out a high C or B flat sometimes. When trying different techniques I stumbled upon something I don't understand.
I hold my horn pretty much straight out from my lips (90 degrees). If I tilt my head down a little and raise my horn a little (above 90 degrees) I can sometimes hit notes above high C, sometimes so high I don't know what note it is, and I don't have to use any more pressure than I do for a G above the staff.
These are not usable notes at this point, but I would like to understand better what raising the horn does to my embouchure. Perhaps if I understand better what is happening it might help me increase my range in the future.
Thanks.
What was your usable range like years ago when you were playing regularly?
While I can't see exactly what you're doing there are ways to squeak out sounds that are never going to be useful for real playing. I remember a guy who used to show up at a rehearsal stage band whose pre-rehearsal warmup always included doing that nonsense. His overall sound wasn't that great, his real range was maybe an okay high C, then he'd do these taught & dry-lip airy squeals with no real center of tone or definite pitch - it was tedious to listen to every week. I think he desperately wanted to play high and this was the only way he could approximate doing that. They sounded like absolute feces and never improved. He was an older guy, nobody ever said to him "jeezus man you sound like a dog who got kicked in the nads" but that's what he sounded like.
At this point your focus should be on improving technique and sound within the range you can solidly play and over time add a little bit at a time to the range you can play solidly. I don't regard dog shrieks as useful except maybe as a comic sound effect.
I strongly recommend posting video of yourself playing including doing this squeaking you're referring to. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Welcome back to trumpet playing! People's jaw, teeth and lips are different, and change over time. It is completely normal (and useful) for some players to pivot as they ascend/descend.
Give some thought to taking lessons if you aren't already doing so. A teacher can help make sure you are off to a good start with your set up, and help you figure out what to practice and how to do so to maximize your progress.
It will not tell you 'what to do', but more about 'what needs to be happening'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:37 am Post subject: Get a good teacher
Welcome back to trumpet!
Strong recommendation: Sign up for long term lessons with a good teacher. Face-to-face live is best, but zoom works ok, too. He/she will give you valuable information about music and trumpet, and (perhaps most importantly at your stage) teach you how to practice.
You’re putting in significant practice time. A good teacher will help make sure that time is as fruitful as possible.
I’ve always found lessons to be quite enjoyable too.
Joined: 09 Oct 2022 Posts: 18 Location: Walbridge, Oh
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:03 am Post subject:
Doug Elliott wrote:
It's almost always worth experimenting to see what effect different angles have. There are different embouchure types - see the Reinhardt Forum here - and it sounds like maybe your chops are upstream, with more bottom lip than top? That would typically do what you're describing. In Reinhardt terms that's a Type IV. I teach this stuff by Skype if you're interested.
Well, my perception of how I hold the horn was off. Here is a short video of 3 practice scales. 1st scale to F, 2nd scale to G, 3rd to B flat. I feel like I need to use more pressure above G and there seems to be a barrier there for me. I have to try a lot harder to squeeze out an A or B flat.
Please tell me what type it appears I am from the video. I will need to read more about Reinhardt.
I see you are a Trombonist. I don't know if this is useful info.... I played Trumpet and Baritone through HS. Baritone in the marching band. Continued Trumpet in a wedding band for about 5 years after HS. My weakness on the Trumpet was high range (I could hit high C and sometimes G above if I had to) and endurance. I could play high and forever on the Baritone and not get tired.
Joined: 09 Oct 2022 Posts: 18 Location: Walbridge, Oh
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Embouchure question
Robert P wrote:
What was your usable range like years ago when you were playing regularly?
I strongly recommend posting video of yourself playing including doing this squeaking you're referring to.
My range was high C or a little above if I didn't have to do it too often. I played in a wedding band after HS for about 5 years. We really didn't play any music where I needed that kind of range. I could do it, but it required increased mouthpiece pressure.
Well, my perception of how I hold the horn was off. Here is a short video of 3 practice scales. 1st scale to F, 2nd scale to G, 3rd to B flat. I feel like I need to use more pressure above G and there seems to be a barrier there for me. I have to try a lot harder to squeeze out an A or B flat.
I don't have a video at the moment of me raising the angle of the horn. Sometimes I get above a High C, maybe as high as a Double C and sometimes I get air. I don't need that range now. I'm just trying to understand how to play a little higher if I need to. I will be joining a community band after the holidays.
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Embouchure question
taswalb wrote:
Robert P wrote:
What was your usable range like years ago when you were playing regularly?
I strongly recommend posting video of yourself playing including doing this squeaking you're referring to.
My range was high C or a little above if I didn't have to do it too often. I played in a wedding band after HS for about 5 years. We really didn't play any music where I needed that kind of range. I could do it, but it required increased mouthpiece pressure.
Well, my perception of how I hold the horn was off. Here is a short video of 3 practice scales. 1st scale to F, 2nd scale to G, 3rd to B flat. I feel like I need to use more pressure above G and there seems to be a barrier there for me. I have to try a lot harder to squeeze out an A or B flat.
I don't have a video at the moment of me raising the angle of the horn. Sometimes I get above a High C, maybe as high as a Double C and sometimes I get air. I don't need that range now. I'm just trying to understand how to play a little higher if I need to. I will be joining a community band after the holidays.
You've found something I've talked about before - what you think you're doing is often not what's really going on. The mouth area is very sensitive, you're being bombarded with a lot of physical sensations, what are actually small adjustments can feel big.
Something I recommend is playing with as high a horn angle as possible - play a note you can hit easily and solidly and try raising the horn angle up a slight amount at a time until the note cuts off, then lower the horn until the note speaks solidly again. When the horn raises, your teeth/lower jaw will change position.
Your sound isn't bad - in general I'd recommend putting more gusto behind it. As you get higher push more air - also try opening your teeth slightly, just a hair and see if that helps. Once you get to about F at the top of the staff try to play each higher note more full than the one before. I bet you could hit that Bb far more solidly than you're demonstrating in that video just by tweaking your approach a bit.
Also pushing the valves more crisply - your fingers are a bit sluggish. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Sounds like you have a good concept of sound and are approaching the horn in a generally healthy fashion. Kudos!
I'd focus on shoring up what is currently the strong part of your range. Really make it exactly how you want it to be. Spend 70% of your time there. 30% of your time in your "challenging areas." I think as you continue to improve you will more easily discern which experiments are viable and productive and which are not. Until then, keep having fun!
I think the above advise from Robert P is way more analysis than you can handle at the moment.
Obligatory: "get a teacher for more fun," comment.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1169 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:36 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
You've found something I've talked about before - what you think you're doing is often not what's really going on. The mouth area is very sensitive, you're being bombarded with a lot of physical sensations, what are actually small adjustments can feel big.
Something I recommend is playing with as high a horn angle as possible - play a note you can hit easily and solidly and try raising the horn angle up a slight amount at a time until the note cuts off, then lower the horn until the note speaks solidly again. When the horn raises, your teeth/lower jaw will change position.
That's very close to exactly what I would tell him. Coming from my knowledge of embouchure types, it's very likely that little bit of adjustment ("too much analysis?" No way) would push him in the right direction for his particular embouchure.
You've found something I've talked about before - what you think you're doing is often not what's really going on. The mouth area is very sensitive, you're being bombarded with a lot of physical sensations, what are actually small adjustments can feel big.
Something I recommend is playing with as high a horn angle as possible - play a note you can hit easily and solidly and try raising the horn angle up a slight amount at a time until the note cuts off, then lower the horn until the note speaks solidly again. When the horn raises, your teeth/lower jaw will change position.
That's very close to exactly what I would tell him. Coming from my knowledge of embouchure types, it's very likely that little bit of adjustment ("too much analysis?" No way) would push him in the right direction for his particular embouchure.
There was a participant here a while back who was absolutely sure that when playing the space between his teeth was up behind his upper lip. I assured him that there's no way he'd be able to play like that - I *think* I finally convinced him that wasn't the way things were by having him play an easy note like a low C or G on the staff and then feel between his teeth with the tip of his tongue and feel the lips between his teeth.
He was also sure that he had too much overhang of the top lip when relaxed - which somewhat played into the above misconception. I had him measure the amount of overhang by using a small rod and then measuring how much overhang he had - then I demonstrated that mine was actually more than his by doing the same thing with the handle of a visualizer and measuring the amount of the rod that disappeared behind my upper lip when the end of the rod contacted my upper incisors and advised him that I had shortened my upper central incisors specifically to create more overhang and that it had only improved things for me.
He had some other genuine issues but excess upper lip overhang wasn't one of them. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
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