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markag Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: Horn Repair / Soldering Question |
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I am wanting to learn some basic horn repair skills to add to my skillset. I like to tinker with things, and think it could be fun to know how to solder and tinker around with trumpet customization.
Anyway. I bought an Olds Ambassador that I plan to use to learn on, but ultimately I have the intention of replacing the leadpipe and installing a VGR onto my Bach LR43 Strad. The Bach is 25 years old the leadpipe is starting to get patches of pitting near the receiver and some external red rot at the end of the leadpipe where the tuning slide goes over it. I figure it's a decent time to replace the leadpipe with a new one, and while I'm at it, I want to put a Harrelson VGR on the new leadpipe.
The Ambassador I picked up to practice with is lacquered. I know when soldering I need to get down to clean brass on that horn for any work. The question I have is regarding silver horns. If a component is silver plated, do you need to remove the silver plating down to raw brass where you will be soldering, or is it acceptable to solder directly to cleaned silver plated pieces? The Strad is silver plated, that's why I'm asking. _________________ Bach Strad LR43 - Late 90s - Harrelson mod kit & M/K sterling silver semi-round tuning slide
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn - 2021 - Raw Brass |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Horn Repair / Soldering Question |
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markag wrote: | I am wanting to learn some basic horn repair skills to add to my skillset. I like to tinker with things, and think it could be fun to know how to solder and tinker around with trumpet customization.
Anyway. I bought an Olds Ambassador that I plan to use to learn on, but ultimately I have the intention of replacing the leadpipe and installing a VGR onto my Bach LR43 Strad. The Bach is 25 years old the leadpipe is starting to get patches of pitting near the receiver and some external red rot at the end of the leadpipe where the tuning slide goes over it. I figure it's a decent time to replace the leadpipe with a new one, and while I'm at it, I want to put a Harrelson VGR on the new leadpipe.
The Ambassador I picked up to practice with is lacquered. I know when soldering I need to get down to clean brass on that horn for any work. The question I have is regarding silver horns. If a component is silver plated, do you need to remove the silver plating down to raw brass where you will be soldering, or is it acceptable to solder directly to cleaned silver plated pieces? The Strad is silver plated, that's why I'm asking. |
I strongly recommend spending some time with your local tech asking questions and watching. This is not home plumbing....
As regards you question, modern solder is mostly silver. The plating will meld with the solder IF CLEAN. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3633 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Since you're in Illinois, you're near to the headquarters of NAPBIRT (National Association of Professional Band Instrument Technicians)
They have members who don't do repair for a living and you could join and learn from the pros. They are in Normal, IL
Online forums will be shooting in the dark. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:43 am Post subject: |
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There's some good info about soldering here -
https://www.robbstewart.com/soldering
It's important to learn about the different types of solder - low temp, hi temp, etc. and how they can be used. Also, there are various types of torches that are appropriate for different type of work.
A big part of soldering is the clean-up and finial finishing of the joints - it can take a lot of work and skill to make it look good.
For practice I suggest using thin wall brass tubing from a 'hobby shop' that carries material for radio controlled cars, planes, etc. The tubing is available in sizes that 'telescope' into each other.
Homedepot has this -
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Small-Brass-Telescopic-Tubing-3400/312254390
I've done DIY soldering on my own instruments using low temp 'soft solder', and the results have been 'functional' but look quite sloppy.
For soldering on silver plate, I don't think it is necessary to remove the plating. For lacquer, you'd want to remove the lacquer with abrasive polish or by sanding. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1545 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Another way to get some interesting experience is to that the International Trumpet-Making Workshop offered annually usually in Indiana in the US, but also in England and in Germany. You will learn about high-temp soldering, low-temp soldering, a lot more and make a replica of a 17th Century natural trumpet that is completely playable and sounds good.
https://www.seraphinoff.com/about-the-international-trumpet-making-workshops
I participated this year and it was great fun, hard work, but great fun. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: Soldering on silver-plate |
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The hardest thing about soldering on a silver plated instrument (the plating does not have to be removed) is the tendency of the solder to flow past the area you're soldering. Same with gold plate. The solder just likes to "run" and it is difficult to clean the area around your repair afterwards. It's easy to remove the plating when cleaning the affected area up afterwards. The new lacquered horns differ from the old ones in that the new epoxy lacquer is so tough, I've repaired braces and not burnt the lacquer. Too much heat and this new stuff will scorch also but on the old horns, the lacquer will get burnt. Very important to have the area to be soldered as clean as possible. Flux is a must whenever you are soldering.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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markag Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the follow-up. I don't anticipate this is something I would get good at right away, however I am the hyperfocus type of person that is really good at tedious detail oriented tasks.
I do live in central Illinois about 40 minutes away from the Bloomington-Normal, IL area. I also now want to take that natural trumpet workshop, but my wife says no . I am currently restoring / rebuilding an 1890 upright piano and I need to finish that project before I go full bore into another interest.
My hope is to practice on the Ambassador by taking it apart and putting it back together. I'll probably start with small bits before going crazy with it to get used to the way the soft solder reacts. I'm sure I'll learn along the way before doing any work on a horn I have any personal connection to. _________________ Bach Strad LR43 - Late 90s - Harrelson mod kit & M/K sterling silver semi-round tuning slide
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn - 2021 - Raw Brass |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I have tried this once in the past with a silver plated Conn, the silver plated is not a big problem but like others have said the solder may have a tendency to flow in the most unexpected ways, a thorough cleanup will usually have to be done with a few different tools.
Best thing to do is to be delicate and patient during the heating process so there isn't a mess to clean up afterwards.
Make sure you have a good angle and position for the areas that you plan to work on. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12662 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: |
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markag wrote: | I'm sure I'll learn along the way before doing any work on a horn I have any personal connection to. |
Remind me to not leave my horn unattended when you are around. |
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markag Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:43 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | markag wrote: | I'm sure I'll learn along the way before doing any work on a horn I have any personal connection to. |
Remind me to not leave my horn unattended when you are around. |
You better watch out! haha _________________ Bach Strad LR43 - Late 90s - Harrelson mod kit & M/K sterling silver semi-round tuning slide
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn - 2021 - Raw Brass |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3633 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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markag wrote: |
My hope is to practice on the Ambassador by taking it apart and putting it back together. I'll probably start with small bits before going crazy with it to get used to the way the soft solder reacts. I'm sure I'll learn along the way before doing any work on a horn I have any personal connection to. |
You'll need a torch and round-nose pliers to grip tubing w/o damage. Heat gloves are handy, and an old cotton sock as a solder wipe. You'll run into parts that don't want to come apart because of corrosion. Ambassador parts often crack when disassembled.
If you have a bench motor and a buffing wheel with some tripoli compound, you'll be able to clean up the reassembly a lot better. Don't get the work too far under the wheel, or you'll learn about horns being wrapped around buffers. Always work on junkers until you're sure.
There's your Cliiff's Notes primer.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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