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Yamaha YTR6310 (pre Z)



 
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:05 pm    Post subject: Yamaha YTR6310 (pre Z) Reply with quote

In 2021 I bought a pre Z Yamaha YTR6310. In the original case I found the warranty folder, which said the trumpet is from 1988!

I use this trumpet for bigband and I like the broad and open sound, warm if you play soft and bright when you step on it. It looks to have a 72-style bell and it seems to be made from goldbrass.

Now I wonder how this trumpet compares to the Z trumpets. When I got the horn, the tuning slide was stuck. In an attemt to free it myself, I ruined the slide. My local repairshop fitted a new tuning slide from a 8310Z. So maybe they don't really differ that much if such an important part is interchangeable?

Does somebody has technical data or more insight on the pre Z 6310?
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No knowledge whatsoever about the pre Z 6310?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point it's hard to say what the horn would have been had the original tuning slide not gotten ruined - the tuning slide can make a HUGE difference in how a horn responds and plays. There's a whole cottage industry dedicated to the idea that an improved or modified tuning slide will help or change the playing characteristics of a trumpet in a positive way.

By fitting the horn with a modern 8310Z tuning slide, it will make a pretty substantial difference, even though the bore size is the same.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looked at this link. I don't know what the difference would have been. Both are listed as having a medium bore and an "A" bell.

https://www.trumpet-history.com/yamaha%20models.htm

I wonder if it was more a situation where Bobby liked the 6310, and they came up with a marketing thing by renaming the 6310 the 6310Z, and then sticking Bobby Shew's name to it as a means to market it in a specific way.

The idea behind the original Z horn was supposedly to make a great playing "do everything" trumpet. There are people who swear by the 8310Z as their do-everything trumpet, although at this point the Z Horn tends to be associated more with Jazz and commercial playing. This is the quote from the page:

"One day the jazz legend Bobby Shew came to us with an impossible dream. He wanted a “perfect” trumpet – one single horn that could play anything, from lead to ballade, from classical to jazz. We worked closely with him for many years, defining and designing his uncompromising vision, and finally turning it into form. Along the way, we had to develop some very innovative things, like the unique “step bore” design which is the heart of the Z. The Z is much more efficient than a conventional trumpet. It gives you more for your effort; more sizzle to scream lead, more power to really project, more control for those sweet mellow solos."

https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/winds/trumpets/bb_trumpets/ytr-6310z/index.html

What I find interesting is the idea that they developed the step-bore concept for Bobby, when in fact it was Renold Schilke who first came up with and employed that concept in the 1960s with the original B models.*

* To the above statement about Renold Schilke - he may not have developed that concept - it may have been in use prior to his using it on the Schilke B models, but the point is that it certainly wasn't developed by Yamaha for the 6310Z Shew
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder if it was more a situation where Bobby liked the 6310, and they came up with a marketing thing by renaming the 6310 the 6310Z, and then sticking Bobby Shew's name to it as a means to market it in a specific way.


I've heard this story from Bobby a few times. If I recall correctly, the starting point for the 6310Z was a late 1970s Yamaha copy of a Martin Committee. Numerous changes were made to the bell: Bead, thickness, other changes I don't recall. I believe more things were changes than just the bell, but the bell changes are the only ones I can recall specifically. After numerous prototypes they finally came up with the 6310Z.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two Yamaha trumpets designed by Schilke that are said to be based in the B7 (pairing a small bore body to fast taper bell stem "A" bell closely patterned on a Schilke #1). These are the YTR-732 and YTR-902 - though the 902 uses a red brass bell.

The 902 became the 931M which was renamed 9310M. The 732 was the progenitor of the 736, which in turn led to the 6310. Even after the additional tweaks to the 6310Z, which supposedly are taken in part from the 9310 (leadpipe?) the fundamental voice of the horn remained the essentially Schilke #1 bell, the Yamaha "A". What changed predominantly was the build of the horn behind it, and the leadpipe at each of the 6310 iterations.

None of these is a 72 bell, or even a Bach bell taper of any kind. It is a Schilke bell taper independently derived from influences of Couesnon-made Besson and Holton bells Schilke worked with and played personally.

As for the tuning slide - the first thing to try is spending some time on the Yamaha parts portal yamaha24x7 to see if the slide is still available. If not, then the modern one is made in China and Japan production has ended (we find this for a lot of Yamaha parts) - which would mean that the 8310Z slide is not going to be representative of what was there pre-Z. On the other hand, if the slide for a non-Z is still an available part, then the 8310Z probably uses it.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always read that the YTR 739T was based directly off of the Schilke B3. I had one of those in HS and that danged thing PLAYED!
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the early 80’s there was a guy at yamaha named Kevin who I talked to several times when he worked at the Grand Rapids plant, and also when he worked in LA. He told me much about the shew stuff.

The original shew was the 636B. It was just like the 636 except the bell was lighter gauge. I played a 636 at the time. It had .445 bore, large bell, and same leadpipe as the other 6/7 series trumpets.

When the “6 thousand series” came out, the 636 and 636b became the 6310 z. (Ifthere are 6310 without the z, I don’t know about that)

Keven told me in about 1988 at a brass day at San Diego state, that the new 6310z could be modified by Bobby but that yamaha did not do the “shew tweak”. He wouldn’t tell what that was though.

I started playing a committee in about 1993 and I went with Mario Gonzalez to see bob malone at his shop before he was with yamaha. Mario liked my committee too. I tried out the 6310z and it was not as solid at high F as my committee, so one of the guys there (never did actually see bob Malone there) said bobby does a tweak that makes high F more solid. I had heard of the tweet from Kevin from yamaha. The guy said that if I buy the z horn, they could then do the tweak after I buy it, but I could not change my mind after the tweak. I said sure go ahead.

The guy gets a piece of tool steel shaped like a trumpet mouthpiece shank but just small enough to hit bottom in the 63100z receiver. He put the slug of steel in the receiver and hits it one hit with a pretty big hammer. Made a loud ping sound. Hands it back to me. Played pretty much the same. I played it for several years and liked it, but not for certain things.

I have a 8310z gen 2 now and everything is great except the super loud valves, which are crazy loud, and feel really cheap. The horn is good though
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 732 technically ended in 1977 when it was renamed the 736. It also became the 636, but that was in gold lacquer unlike the 7 series horns (otherwise identical). The 636/736 ended in 1982 when the 6310 was released as, once again, medium bore, A bell in yellow brass, and in the gold lacquer, so technically a 636 I suppose (but all really unchanged from the 732 other than minor tweaks.)

The 1977-introduced 739T was one of the last horns Renold Schilke did for Yamaha, intended as I understand it to compete with the Silver Flair from King. Since this was the time frame when King went downhill, it definitely dominated that contest. It is not, however, a Schilke clone. The bell is the Yamaha YR, a Bach based bell, in gold brass, and designed to optimize with larger bore geometry sort of like a Bach 25 (actual taper inspiration? I dont know, but Bach family)

When I was in HS there were three types of trumpet players: The really serious guys with Bachs, the anything but serious parking garage screamers with Getzens (or the occasional Holton Maynard model), or the serious, but more diverse in style guys who played 739Ts
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tnx for all the information!

trickg wrote:
At this point it's hard to say what the horn would have been had the original tuning slide not gotten ruined - the tuning slide can make a HUGE difference in how a horn responds and plays. There's a whole cottage industry dedicated to the idea that an improved or modified tuning slide will help or change the playing characteristics of a trumpet in a positive way.

By fitting the horn with a modern 8310Z tuning slide, it will make a pretty substantial difference, even though the bore size is the same.


So maybe I accidently got a cheap fankenstein 8310! It plays well, although it tends to intonate a bit high.
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Brent
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:34 am    Post subject: Shew Reply with quote

This is a good review. He notes the correspondence Bobby Shew had regarding the development of this horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx72xd530j8
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Connditor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have a 636 and I also owned the 6310, the 6310Z and the 8310Z.
I have to say that the 636 is the best of those Yamaha horns. Followed by the 6310.
I never got happy with the Z horns, especially the 8310Z was very dissappointing (maybe that is why they now have Gen 3 of that modell).
For my taste and needs the 636 is the best horn ever built by Yamaha and I sold many horns (including a very fine Committe from 1950) but not this one.
But there is another strange parallel which made me comment here:
I bought a used XO 1600 trumpet.
Everybody knows this is the Ingram modell and he developed the horn with the Jupiter guys!

Okay, but please tell me what do I have??
There is no "i", just JTR 1600.
Monel valves, too, not steel, and a Sterling Silver leadpipe!! Same weight though.
I guess it existed before Mr. Ingram became an endorser.

The 1600 without the i is like Lilith, Adam´s first wife (so they say...)
They just disappeared from memory...or wiped out.
I can´t find nothing factual about the 1600 but a lot about the 1600i.
My guess is that they introduced it and it did not sell because of the M bore (Americans like it BIG?). So they got in contact...or Mr. Ingram played it by chance and they modified the horn..?
Nevertheless, it is a wonderful trumpet with a very centered and warm sound, core and depth...and the silver adds some sparkle to the sound when you push that little (?) baby.
I always remember Lew Soloff and his M bore NY Bach when playing that horn. RIP
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chase1973
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I recall, the early Yamaha 732 was to be based on the Schilke B7, M bore, L brass bell. I thought Yamaha also made a model based on the popular Schilke B6 M bore, ML bell (BTW-ALL Schilke yellow-brass bells between 1967-1981 were made by Yamaha). Schilke used to sell Yamaha horns at the old Schilke shop on Wabash.

Bobby Shew started playing the 636 series in 1978 after playing a large bore Olds model. Roger's 636B was tweaked by Bob Malone and I know people that played that horn and said it played HUGE. Roger went to the 6310Z for about two years before switching to Schilke (S42L first then a gold-plated fixed bell S42) prior to getting on w Jupiter.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(BTW-ALL Schilke yellow-brass bells between 1967-1981 were made by Yamaha). I don't think so. The MI and MII were essentially Yamahas and for a while the ML bore B1, B2, and B5 used Yamaha valve blocks. All the valves were fitted at the Schilke shop. The MII had a Schilke leadpipe and tuning slide. I was there as a buffer, valve fitter, final assembly and later as a repair tech.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the owner of a 6310Z and an 8310Z Gen 1, I find all the information in the posts on this thread fascinating! Thanks to everyone who posted; this is exactly where I find value in my Trumpet Herald membership.
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