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Schilke vs Shires AF



 
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kurth83
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:22 pm    Post subject: Schilke vs Shires AF Reply with quote

Any Schilke that sounds like an AF?

My AF is the biggest efficient open horn I have played and it really hits a sweet spot for tone. I'm a classical guy so I am looking for 'that' tone. But I am also a Schilke fan (I know that's a bit of a conflict of priorities) so looking for options in their lineup.

Do I have any decent options here?

B3? X3? Or an older S22 (have an S22HD and that's not 'it', lacks efficiency compared to the AF)?

I have a B6 and it is a tight smallish sounding horn, fantastic for what it is made to do, I use it for ensembles where I need a small sound and it fits in perfectly. I want a big efficient version of that.

Wind ensembles will be it's main job.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On paper, the S32HD and Soloiste series are the closest match. They both have a seamed bell and nickel trim. The Soloiste model has a standard configuration tuning slide, so it's probably a bit more Bach-like, similar to the Shires.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never understood this. Schilke SETS the standard, far and above, for Eb/D and Piccolo trumpets but classical folks scoff at the Bb and C trumpets. What's the deal?
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any Schilke that sounds like an AF?


I have not played a Schilke Soloiste model, but none of the B, HD i or S series Schilke trumpets I have played have the same blow or sound as a Shires AF.

That shouldn't be too surprising as Shires sought their design inspiration from Bach. The Shires A/AF/AZ are all rooted in the Bach 18037 model. Thus, it seems to me that the more you want a Schilke that sounds like a Shires AF, the further you are moving from Schilke's legacy design philosophy. As the previous response suggested, that's probably the S32HD or one of the Soloiste models -- which I have not tried and so cannot comment on -- which many consider to be the most Bach-like of Schilke's lineup.

Quote:
I've never understood this. Schilke SETS the standard, far and above, for Eb/D and Piccolo trumpets but classical folks scoff at the Bb and C trumpets. What's the deal?


In the case of Bb trumpets, until the S and HD series came along, Schilke didn't offer a horn with the secure slotting and core that many classical players were looking for. Gross oversimplification, but Schilke was offering sports cars and those players were looking for a comfortable family sedan. I'm glad we can have both.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
I've never understood this. Schilke SETS the standard, far and above, for Eb/D and Piccolo trumpets but classical folks scoff at the Bb and C trumpets. What's the deal?


They don't say Bach on the bell and that's all that matters to some.

Not me, to be clear, but some.
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kurth83
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I would mention The Schilke S22HD and S22CHD met my needs. I now own the Shires AF and 4F, and the Schilke S22HD and S22CHD (B6 and C6 too), which pretty much completes my collection in the Bb and C categories for now.

At this point, now that my recovery (comeback) has progressed, meaning my lip is stronger (although still frustratingly weak sometimes), I find all these horns to be wonderful. The S22HD has grown on me as has it's sibling the S22CHD, both fantastic and responsive horns. I gotta blow a little harder on the S22's than the Shires for the same volume, but the pure Schilke tone (especially the S22CHD) is to die for - in a different way than the Shires - which also sound great in their way.

Please accept my humble apologies for dissing some of these horns in the past, it was me, not the horns.

Frankly in some ways the S22CHD is one of the best sounding C's I have ever heard, I just couldn't play it before. The Schilke artist video of the S22CHD really captures the tone of that instrument well IMHO. I remember thinking that video had my "dream" tone, but earlier when my embouchure was weak I couldn't play the horn in tune. Now I can, and what once felt like a beast that was hard to play in tune now feels like a remarkably in-tune horn, I am kind of amazed (and a bit sheepish) at this actually.

So I'm back to being an (almost) full-time Schilke fan-boy (with some dabbling in some excellent Shires horns on the side...).
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
"I've never understood this. Schilke SETS the standard, far and above, for Eb/D and Piccolo trumpets but classical folks scoff at the Bb and C trumpets. What's the deal?"


Oversimplified: Classical folks (and me) never scoffed at any Schilkes, including the Bb and C trumpets, when playing solo or in small ensembles. Beautiful tone, superb intonation. But when it comes to riding over an orchestra (John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Korngold, ...), my Bach C-Trumpet put me right where I wanted to be when I played my first note on it.

As for "It says Bach on it ..."
In 1999 I decided to sell all my rotaries and switch to pistons (for mostly personal and psychological, not musical reasons). Coming from Vienna, I knew Jack Manure about US trumpets. I was only aware of Schilke because a certain Wynton had them on the cover of his LP, so I was even pre-disposed towards them, if anything. I did not look for a Bach. I played it and it chose me ... and then it took me years to find the right gap/backbore to sort out my Bach's intonation
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Shark01
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurth83 wrote:
Just thought I would mention The Schilke S22HD and S22CHD met my needs. I now own the Shires AF and 4F, and the Schilke S22HD and S22CHD (B6 and C6 too), which pretty much completes my collection in the Bb and C categories for now.

At this point, now that my recovery (comeback) has progressed, meaning my lip is stronger (although still frustratingly weak sometimes), I find all these horns to be wonderful. The S22HD has grown on me as has it's sibling the S22CHD, both fantastic and responsive horns. I gotta blow a little harder on the S22's than the Shires for the same volume, but the pure Schilke tone (especially the S22CHD) is to die for - in a different way than the Shires - which also sound great in their way.

Please accept my humble apologies for dissing some of these horns in the past, it was me, not the horns.

Frankly in some ways the S22CHD is one of the best sounding C's I have ever heard, I just couldn't play it before. The Schilke artist video of the S22CHD really captures the tone of that instrument well IMHO. I remember thinking that video had my "dream" tone, but earlier when my embouchure was weak I couldn't play the horn in tune. Now I can, and what once felt like a beast that was hard to play in tune now feels like a remarkably in-tune horn, I am kind of amazed (and a bit sheepish) at this actually.

So I'm back to being an (almost) full-time Schilke fan-boy (with some dabbling in some excellent Shires horns on the side...).


I will agree with the thoughts here on the S22CHD, it sounds like an orchestral trumpet should, and deserves a better reputation than it has.

I also own a Bb Soloiste MG. This takes secure slotting and pitch center to a new level and yet has a somewhat singing quality. Some people call it Bach like, but it does sound like a Schilkeā€¦..just different.
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kurth83
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems clear to me why the S22CHD has the rep it has.
To describe the rep - as best stated by others who reviewed it (paraphrased from around the web):

- Great for light playing. Fine for solo and small to medium ensemble work, but can't deliver the volume needed in a large symphony (echoed by a poster here in this thread).
- Another reviewer said it could work in a large symphony, but would have to work harder, and questioned why you would want to do that when other horns are available.
- A third reviewer somewhere on this site said it was about 70% as powerful as the bachs used in large symphonies, again, fine for smaller venues.
- At least one principal in an orchestra I had heard of reported it was his primary horn, and commented that the non-brass players thought it was a tonal improvement over his other horns when he made the switch, for him that was enough to stick with it. This agrees with my experience, if it works for you, it sounds fantastic.
- There are performances where the entire section used S22CHD's, but they are the exception.
- On the other hand some say it gets a bit bright for their taste.
- I also found I had to blow harder for the same volume that with my Shires horns.
- some like the tradoff that is the S22CHD, but some have panned it saying it doesn't fit into what they do at all, YMMV I guess, but hopefully this makes it clear what the horn has to offer.

Since my orchestral gigs are small to medium venues it works well for me, and I have the more powerful Shires models when I need them.

AFAIK the "best" option out there right now is the Yamaha New York C, I may have to buy one at some point just to see how it compares.
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