Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Mental block with starting phrases
Apologies if this topic has been covered already, I'm a brand new member and haven't done much digging in the forums yet.
I've recently been having trouble with the first attack of a phrase. I went through an embouchure/technique change about 2 years ago, and I found that breath and "k" attacks worked wonders to get everything in the right position. This had an unintended consequence after a few months of practice- I no longer felt comfortable using a normal attack when starting phrases. It feels much harder to strike the back of my teeth with my tongue and then snap it back into position than to simply start with it already there. Nowadays, I'll go to start the note but my tongue will get "stuck" at the contact point and a whole bunch of tension/air starts building up behind it.
I've been using a metronome to practice attacks (rest for 6 and play for 2, stuff like that) and it's helped a lot, but now I'm finding that I can only get perfect attacks when playing along with a recording/metronome and can't reproduce it on my own.
Has anyone else had an issue like this? What do you all do to develop unimpeded attacks? I'm assuming most players don't have this same mental block, but I would love to hear out anyone who has a take on it. Thanks!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Mental block with starting phrases
adamkteske wrote:
... It feels much harder to strike the back of my teeth with my tongue and then snap it back into position than to simply start with it already there. ...
----------------------------------
Can you explain your tongue action in more detail?
I do not understand your -
- initial tongue position before starting the action
- what part of tongue moves into contact with upper/lower teeth/lips
- what the 'snap it back into' position is
later edit: another question - is your 'initial articulation' a continuous flow of inhale, set, adjust, blow? Or do you do it in some type of individual and separated steps? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:10 pm Post subject:
It is probably related to how you are taking a breath. Air should go in, and out... Never hold it. Think: corners and air go back, corners and air go forward. That first note starts with blowing and corners locking in place - your tongue doesn't start the note, whether or not it articulates.
I do Skype lessons if you want more help with this.
Its mental because you know you haven’t locked it in physically.
Also because you are not commited to a consistent process about it yet.
Consistency will come and confidence will come AFTER you have locked it in.
Then you keep replicating what you know you want to manufacture.
Ok —- less abstract and more direct advice.
This helped me find the tension that was locking up attacks.
(Personal case study)
1- started learning how much less energy I needed to use by playing leadpipe with the tuning slide out. F in the staff and going down half steps to pedal c.
(Bill Adam type stuff also used by Javier Gonzales [Dancing w/ the Stars])
2- started getting my mouthpiece buzzing like a motorboat. You can bet that you may need to learn a few new contact points with the lips. This is where I realized where the last and main tension area was that I had been creating which was creating split attacks and inconsistencies. Its in the past now
(middle of my top lip had also needed to heal from very deep cuts)
3- k tonguing was a distinct choice I made to go with once I experienced how much less it disrupted my air column and then I worked on it and use it most.
(Conventional tonguing was interrupting the air column how I did it)
4- I really took to heart what Jim Manley taught with these concepts and also what he says Maynard Ferguson said which was in effect that The lips job is to be in the way of the air (I interpret as air pressure/ compression)
Another related concept that Jim explained was that we are activating the standing wave inside of the trumpet. This was huge to me. So my resonant cavity of air just needs to meet up with and activate the standing wave in the trumpet. (Application - stop trying to blow like a fire hose at the trumpet)
5 - If you get that resonant sound in the pedals and can retain that feel and not make unnecessary changes as you ascend there will be a consistency in your sound and resonance up to the Cat Anderson register.
(This combines some Claude Gordon philosophy & discussion with Jim.)
Along the way I learned how my tonguing was interrupting the air column and where there was tension in my lips and let it go. I also started playing a little more wet by touching my tongue under my top lip in the middle then on the middle of my bottom lip before playing.
After learning how little it takes to make a pitch with the tuning slide off and while finding the resonant mouthpiece buzz I gradually unlocked many issues I had been having. Be patient and try to feel where something doesn’t feel right and see if an adjustment helps. Some things are only felt by the player.
It makes a great difference to have a competent set of eyes & ears coaching.
There were other great teachers and lessons along the way but these are the main areas that needed to be unlocked here before new development began.
Each of these 5 items together fixed the attacks and starting notes issue.
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 722 Location: Hereford, UK
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:39 am Post subject: Re: Mental block with starting phrases
adamkteske wrote:
Has anyone else had an issue like this? What do you all do to develop unimpeded attacks? I'm assuming most players don't have this same mental block, but I would love to hear out anyone who has a take on it. Thanks!
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:04 am Post subject:
Is this a problem when you double tongue? Does it end up KTKT or TKTK?
Try Bugler's Holiday measures 11-16 only.
What happens with the William Tell Overture?
You trained your self by repetition to start with a K. Perhaps there were some flaws in your training where you do not start with a K. You can exploit those flaws.
The lips job is to be in the way of the air (I interpret as air pressure/ compression)
The lips job is to be both in the way of air and then alternately to be the only point in the body that is NOT in the way of the air (aperture opens) as it enters the mouthpiece cup. This happens alternately at the frequency of the fundamental of the tone. That frequency is controlled by the lip tension/firmness.
The air pressure is by the lung pressure state by exhalation effort. The lips do not "compress" (pressurize) the air, neither does the tongue. But the lips do "throttle" the flow as described before.
Quote:
Another related concept that Jim explained was that we are activating the standing wave inside of the trumpet. This was huge to me. So, my resonant cavity of air just needs to meet up with and activate the standing wave in the trumpet.
Yes, but I assume your "resonant cavity of air" is referring to the air in the instrument. There is very little to no significant resonance in the oral space or body as it relates to playing the trumpet.
Last edited by kalijah on Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:15 am; edited 2 times in total
I do something similar to this by Kenny. Go for a calm feel first. Let the attack focus over time. Do notes lower than he is doing as well. Example: low C or below.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9014 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:47 pm Post subject:
The OP said he had studied with Bobby Shew, supposedly one of the best in the business. Perhaps revisiting all this with Bobby would fill in some blanks left unfilled. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Adam, you may also consider a tongue posture closer to the consonant "D" without any jaw movement rather than T for attacks. I find that an abrupt "D" release is better than thinking "T" and could require less tongue movement. The T in language often has a slower release and has turbulence which interrupts air flow for playing.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Voluntary or involuntary
fleming wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Falling on deaf ears, LOL?
If one is VOLUNTARILY investing hours/days/weeks/months/years in improving one’s playing, then spending some $$ and some time with a master teacher seems like the only sensible choice.
The only free advice that is worthwhile is to stop listening to free advice.
Completely agree.
Even though I tried to be as descriptive as possible in my post on this….
If I was someone else reading my post I do not
think it would have the same effect at all….
…as being the one going through the journey with the in-person,
video, & personal coaching and advice of qualified people like I did.
We are here because we all love talking trumpet.
This passion everyone here has does not begin nor end online
The investment, relationship building, time on the horn, and everything
else that comes along the way is where the adventure takes place!
If one really cares then they will invest accordingly.
Kalijah is right with his more specific breakdown that he outlined regarding resonance (which I should have just omitted as an adjective for my cavity of air) and the lips second function of opening.
Last edited by Shaft on Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:14 am; edited 3 times in total
Interestingly enough (I don’t know the history being discussed here)
I almost mentioned Peter Bond interviews online and a book he mentioned in the interview.
Essentially Bond goes into his approach for starting notes with more of a singers type of mindset. Very interesting concept as laid out in the interview.
He also talks about working harder than we need to and some approaches to the horn that he noticed playing with Mel Broiles. Solid discussion if one finds it.
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