Thoughts on formal vs. street learning

[kehaulani]

A topic that regularly comes up here is formal vs. street education. I found the linked talk below very interesting.

This woman is a successful film scorer, but her observations are applicable to all musicians. She additionally has some thoughts about the role of social media in our education.

Anne has a BM from the Netherlands in Film Composition and has also done advanced work at UCLA, so she sees education with a good perspective. She owns her own Film Scoring Production company in L.A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGtrq9Qnx6I
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[GeorgeB]

That was definitely interesting. Thanks, kehaulani. She is a pretty smart young lady.

George
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GeorgeB
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[JayKosta]

I didn't watch the whole video, but the initial part about music theory seems to be more about HOW a composer gets 'musical ideas' for a new piece. I think the main point she is making is that having formal training and understanding music theory does not assure having the 'creativity to imagine' good new pieces.

I think she does allude to the need for training (or acquired skill) to 'flesh-out' initial musical ideas to become a fully produced score or arrangement.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[HenryJam]

I want to say that this video is very interesting. I've found a lot of useful information for me. Thanks for sharing. The linked talk seems interesting as the speaker brings a unique perspective as a successful film scorer with both formal education (BM from the Netherlands, advanced work at UCLA) and practical experience (owns a Film Scoring Production company in L.A.). I think that it can be useful material for my college task, which I do along with https://essays.edubirdie.com/assignment-writing-service service, as it's hard for me to find all the necessary info by myself. It would be valuable to hear her thoughts on the balance between formal education and street education, as well as her insights on the role of social media in education.

[abontrumpet]

It's a fun thought provoking subject. I always say, my degrees don't qualify me for a playing gig. If a high school prodigy plays better than me, they are getting the gig.

From a "classical" perspective, on the subject of formal higher education, I think the model needs to be examined, especially in the US. My thoughts on the matter: long story short, if you have to go into unmanageable debt to get a music education, you should rethink getting a formal education or you have to know that you are of a caliber to succeed.

I once had this debate with a Canadian colleague. He thought the US system was too relaxed with admissions and preferred the limited education spots in Canada. I fought him saying -- everybody should have a chance. But having been on faculty at places where they accept anybody with a pulse and been part of competitive music environments where people still aren't getting jobs after graduation, I think that the elitist/German system (that she references) actually does a bit of a service. They say: you have to meet these standards to get a formal music education in this country. For many that means, they will adjust course and won't get a music education. This limits the amount of non-working musicians in the country creating a higher rate of employment for musicians in general. It doesn't give everybody an opportunity but saves a lot of people a huge headache after the fact.

Is it elitist? Yes. But those that want it bad enough can seek out private/street education (edit: but usually and unfortunately they have to have the means and privilege to do so) and continue to chip away at it until they meet the threshold for entry or they can continue to chip away at it until they win a job outright. I didn't get as much money as I wanted between my MM and the next step, so I took a year off, gigged, practiced and the following year I got into 7 programs with a full ride. I had my eye on my goals.

Formal education does offer great things, free-exchange of ideas with significant amount of people (usually propelling growth and progress) as well as a network for current and future employment. But it is not the only path forward. If you are curious enough, resourceful enough, and have the right mix of talent and hard work, you can go very far for less money than the US system is currently charging. Anne-Kathrin Dern of the youtube video proves it. She was denied and then fought like hell to figure out a way.

[kehaulani]

I held off saying this, but I have a BM and MM in Composition (as well as a Doctorate in Conducting) and have worked in theatrical music like Anne-Kathrin, although taking a different career path.

I am not an academic and have never had a job where my advanced degrees mattered. It was only what you could do.
(caveat: there were two jobs which I needed a degree to qualify for the auditions for but after that, it only mattered what you could produce.)

I know it's popular on the internet to scoff at formal education and that one could learn the same things on their own. I leave comment on that for another day.

But for myself, I don't think I learned anything in university that wasn't to my advantage. Anything. (O.K. maybe not Texas history, LOL.) But I got my Doctorate in particular for me.

I repeat what I heard a guy say in a heated exchange years ago, "It's not what you know. It's how you use what you know".
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Croquethed]

To dig down into the pre-collegiate foundation, not so much for those who would like to go into music professionally, but for any kid who plays in a high school instrumental program:

What are the things that an instructor/band director should be required to teach students so they have an adequate command of music, whether they're a star who wants to play professionally, or an average kid who may just want to play in a community band?

I felt that I got an adequate amount of instruction on the mechanics of playing, but nothing at all about how music works. And that affected the way I felt about playing until it became an onerous chore that I eventually quit.

[abontrumpet]

[Croquethed]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, ab. Suffice to say that, after a 39-year break, picking up the horn has become an indispensable part of my day. I'm nine years and four horns into the comeback.

I think one thing instructors can do is not to assume that kids who may very well LOVE music come from homes that have anything but a most rudimentary knowledge of it. My folks were both from poor families where taking an instrument in school was not possible, so any knowledge I would get had to come from school. I knew what a chord was, but I didn't know what notes were in them, how different chords worked together, or how one could create a riff. If it was not written on staff paper, I was lost.

The analogy I use is that a kid who progresses through high school who has been taught merely to "read music" without knowing how the notes, rests, etc. work together to form a living documennt is akin to a kid who is taught to "read English" simply by reciting the letters in words as isolated units with no connection, no way to figure out how the "words"and "sentences" were constructed.

I grew up in the heart of the rock era. If any instructor had said "Hey! How about Smoke On The Water? Know what that is? It's a minor blues!" I might have had more incentive to dig into the instrument more. Triple-tonguing Arban day after day? Yeah, sure, good mechanics. But feeding a love of music? Nah.

I guess I just ideally would like every program to find a way to light a fire under any kid for whom the tinder is already there, and then they can take it as far formally or "on the street" as they wish with a solid grounding.

At least I was able to teach my kid how to play John Lee Hooker's Boom Boom on the French horn. I considered it one of the triumphs of parenting.

[nieuwguyski]

[Croquethed]

My point was that the 10th-graders in my band were taught no more deeply than the 6th-graders, other than being expected to play the unconnected units faster and to pay more attention to the pp's and ff's.

I also had a 40-minute small group lesson once a week in which nothing but Arban was used or talked about.

And I don't consider that adequate instruction from the distance of 50 years.