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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 205
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:56 pm Post subject: embouchure |
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Just wondering. During a lesson my teacher talked about 2 kinds of embouchures (I think). one is muscular and the second is swollen lips. I'm not sure if this is exactly what was said but something to the effect that if you play with swollen lips when the swelling goes down you cant play again until you get them swollen. I'm not talking about grotesquely swollen lips but. I'm just wondering if anyone plays like that here on this forum? Does anyone advocate taking at least a day off the trumpet or do you play 7 days a week?
Last edited by Trumpetstud on Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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This would probably do better in the fundamentals forum. You can PM the user Moderators to request it be moved.
I haven’t ever heard of a swollen lips describing a type of embouchure. Swollen lips in my experience are the result of overuse or using too much pressure and is something to avoid, not a normal condition.
In my experience too much pressure was often called the “Armstrong embouchure” referring to strong arms, not Louis. |
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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 205
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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thanks. I probably just misunderstood. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpetstud wrote: | thanks. I probably just misunderstood. |
It also could be my lack of knowledge or exposure. Try to get this moved to the fundamentals forum where some more qualified people might find it and weigh in. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Trumpetstud wrote: | thanks. I probably just misunderstood. |
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You'd need to discuss in more detail with the teacher about exactly WHAT was meant.
It might be that the teacher has noticed that players use a different type of embouchure when their lips are swollen, compared to their non-swollen embouchure.
Perhaps that happens when the 'muscle embouchure' becomes swollen and the muscles don't function as well - so the player adapts a 'rim pressure' (or other technique) to compensate. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 974
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Playing with swollen lips is unfortunately
how some do it and have done it.
It comes about from using too much pressure.
The lips get “pumped up” so to speak.
Not in a good way.
Then the player gets use to this feeling
and makes adjustments to get through
practice, rehersals, & playing engagements.
Typically they have a hard time playing on
a fresh setting because the lips are not “pumped up”.
Endurance is limited and more.
Articulations, dynamics, & leaps all suffer.
Your teacher is most likely cautioning you against this route. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:33 am Post subject: |
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You definitely need to get clarification - what you've described sounds like gibberish. Ask him to repeat and record it and/or take notes. Of course it's also possible he's full of it.
There's no avoiding a certain amount of swelling but it's still controlled by muscles. You need consistency in what you're doing and be as tuned in as possible to the specifics of what you're doing. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Druyff Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2002 Posts: 450 Location: Deventer, Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I think it means your embouchure is pinned too open when you set the mouthpiece. Fold your lower lip slightly over your top lip and set for a middle c when you place the mouthpiece. Let that also be the first note to come out when you practice.
Learning to play a smaller diameter mouthpiece can also help but the above should already make a difference. _________________ 80ties Holton T101 Symphony (Silverplate)
Bach 10-1/2C |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: | Playing with swollen lips is unfortunately
how some do it and have done it.
It comes about from using too much pressure.
The lips get “pumped up” so to speak.
Not in a good way.
Then the player gets use to this feeling
and makes adjustments to get through
practice, rehersals, & playing engagements.
Typically they have a hard time playing on
a fresh setting because the lips are not “pumped up”.
Endurance is limited and more.
Articulations, dynamics, & leaps all suffer.
Your teacher is most likely cautioning you against this route. |
Swollen embouchure is, in fact, a legitimate — if not well known or well regarded — “type” of embouchure. It is not an efficient way to play. It requires constant maintenance. I do not recommend it but, it can be very successful in some commercial settings, and it is the way that I played for several years.
I was tutored in this by Frank Brown in 1970.
• It is not caused by (unintentionally) playing with too much pressure. It is an intentionally induced, cultivated, and maintained state. In fact, I developed a very pliant little forward “pillow” that I brought to the mouthpiece. I played, at that time, with an open aperture (and a long aperture tunnel).
• That this kind of player would have difficulty “on a fresh setting” is correct, and this is where my reference to constant maintenance is critical. I was playing five hours a nite, six nites a week, mostly on trumpet but also some time on keys (by itself or with trumpet at the same time) and on bass trombone once or twice a set. When doing the maintenance properly, I would warm down for a few minutes at the beginning of each break, with a longer (15 min hopefully, but rarely) warm down at the end of the nite. The gig would be preceded by two to four hours of “practice” during the day, This mostly involved, tone, feel, and a lot of Caruso-like, isometric calisthenics.
And, I could not take a day off of playing. If I did — or even took a day off of practicing on a work day, I’d actually feel good the following nite, but it would hit me the next nite (or the next one)
The lips were made to swell in a controlled way and were not abused.
•Endurance did not suffer. Articulations, dynamics, and leaps did not suffer.
The OP’s teacher was probably talking about what I’m talking about and was neither misspeaking nor blathering.
—Denny |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1605 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if your teacher was talking about rolled in (muscular) vs. rolled out (swollen). Some people succeed with rolled in, some with rolled out. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 974
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Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Denny you managed it way better than I did during those times.
I had more limitations to technique than I would wish on anyone.
Three years of cruise ship contracts had its ups and downs as a result.
+1 on the days off issue |
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