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Schilke Mouthpiece sizes question



 
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ketch22
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:36 pm    Post subject: Schilke Mouthpiece sizes question Reply with quote

I couldn't find anything in the search function, so I am asking in this forum. I happened to see a sizing chart for Schilke and was very surprised to "learn" that the larger the first number, the larger diameter - i.e. a 13C4 is smaller than a 15C4. I always thought Schilke reversed the numbering system so that the 15C4 is the smaller diameter. Am I mistaken or is the chart I saw on the Internet incorrect and probably assembled by AI?

BK
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are mistaken.
You are probably confusing things with the Bach labeling system.

A Schilke 11 has a narrower diameter than a Schilke 16.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:56 pm    Post subject: Schilke MP Reply with quote

Hello,
Yamaha uses a similar system to Schilke, where the bigger the number, the wider the cup. Take the cup diameters from the Schilke site and compare them with some of the comparison charts. Most charts are fairly accurate. What you can't tell in the charts is what the bite is like from brand to brand. I like the Kanstul comparison charts, where you can super-impose different brands on each other. It will get you close, but I have found that feel of cup on the face is the true proof of the pudding.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll echo the other comments. Schilke is kind of the reverse of the Bach numbering.

A Bach 1 is very wide. The smallest Schilke size is a 5A4, which is quite narrow. A Bach 17 is very narrow, a Schilke 17 is quite wide (though they make even wider).

Roughly: Bach 1C = Schilke 17. Bach 10 1/2C = Schilke 5A4

Yamaha, who has Schilke as a consultant, uses the same system as Schilke.

If you want, you can compare, here:

https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?
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ketch22
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies and information. I WAS mixing up Bach's and Schilke's numbering systems. It has been so long since I went on a mouthpiece search that I had forgotten. It is, of course, not confusion due to advancing age.

BK
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CTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke mouthpieces are a little tricky. I've spoken to a few of the guys over there and, from what I understand, the history of Schilke mouthpieces is that they were produced for specific trumpet players.

Later on, they made a system that (sort of) incrementally lists the size variations (i.e. Schilke 14, 15, 16, etc.); the issue with this is that it's not simply an increase in the size of the rim when you change the number. Many of their mouthpieces have an entirely different setup internally because the original production of a given mouthpiece was for a specific person.
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hplpII
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This chimes with what my teacher told me years ago when I was at music college. He had me playing on a Schilke 11E for a couple of years. He told me that Schilke had made it for him as a copy of an old German mouthpiece (he was Howard Snell, former LSO principal trumpet).

If you've ever played an 11E, it feels a lot bigger than the numbering might suggest. Quite a large cup volume, and definitely produces an orchestral sound.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrumpeter wrote:
Schilke mouthpieces are a little tricky. I've spoken to a few of the guys over there and, from what I understand, the history of Schilke mouthpieces is that they were produced for specific trumpet players.

Later on, they made a system that (sort of) incrementally lists the size variations (i.e. Schilke 14, 15, 16, etc.); the issue with this is that it's not simply an increase in the size of the rim when you change the number. Many of their mouthpieces have an entirely different setup internally because the original production of a given mouthpiece was for a specific person.

Bach mouthpieces are the same way.
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CTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Bach mouthpieces are the same way.


Ouch...I didn't know that! I've always thought that we need a new system for mouthpieces. To quote Vacchiano, “I foresee in the far future when trumpet players will be able to have their lips analyzed and given the correct mouthpiece size. We already have machines to measure eyes, so why not the lips?”
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a Schilke Model H (Herseth) in H.S. and part of university. Here is the original listing:

Model B (Schilke 9) Designed for Edward B. Lewellyn.
Model H (Schilke 11) A copy of Herseth's NY Bach 7C.
Model J (Schilke12). A copy of Don Jacoby's mouthpiece, around a Bach 6C.
Model V (Schilke 14C2) for Vacchiano.
Model R for Renold Schilke.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTrumpeter wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
Bach mouthpieces are the same way.


Ouch...I didn't know that!

Basically both Bach and Schilke started out making custom pieces for individuals.

Later, Bach went and assigned the size labels we all know now to these custom pieces based on relative size.

In other words, the Bach 3C, 5B and 5C were originally 3 different custom (but similar) models. Since the 5B and 5C were pretty much the same in diameter they were given "5" designations. However, the 5C and 5B have different cups and rims.

Similarly, the Bach 3, 3B, 3C, 3D and 3E are all similar in diameter, but have different rims and cups and cup shapes. The 3E is not a shallower 3C nor is the 3B a deeper 3C. Yes, the 3E is shallower, but it's different in several ways and yes, the 3b is deeper than the 3C, but the rim and cup shape are different.

They're both a collection of mouthpieces that are labelled to seem like they're a system of consistent pieces, but are not.

Schilke even moreso, because the labeling system is so much more detailed. I would say the Schilke pieces are closer to an actual system than Bach, but ... neither are exactly that, either.

Those types of consistent mouthpiece systems exist - GR and Curry in different ways.

I don't know which Bach models started out as custom pieces, but many - I feel like most did.
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chase1973
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke labeling system is far from perfect but it's really the best Will Scarlett (or anybody else) could come up with. They are listed with 5 having the smallest inner diameter and 24 having the largest. However, when it comes to cup depths, it's a different matter.

For example, you'd think the 14A4a is just slightly bigger than the 13A4a in cup depth...not true...there's a significant difference. When it comes to the 4Aa cups, the 6A4a has the smallest and is a convex cup, next is the 13A4a with a combination bowl/V shape. The 5A4 has one of the "deepest" of all the A cup models but the smallest inner diameter.

Schilke pieces have always been their own animal, like Bach, there is little comparison between the two brands. It's all personal preference-no right or wrong, except what works for YOU as an individual.
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