Playing C Trumpet at 256hz Possible?

[harpofdavid]

I am playing on a soprano trombone tuned to A426.67Hz in just intonation. The trombone plays fine in all positions except the B note being a little flat in 1st position at 236Hz warmed up which is almost B natural in just intonation at 240Hz. This changes the notes at 7th position to E being a little high in 1st partial and C rather then B in the 2nd partial.

Can the C trumpet's tuning slides go low enough to play each of these notes in tune up to their 5th partial? I am assuming the C note will have no problem. It seems that the first partial B note will have the biggest issue, since the slide can't really be pulled out much.

Just Intonation Equal Temp
C 256Hz --- 5.63Hz lower--- C261.63Hz (no valves)
B 240Hz----6.94Hz lower--- B246.94Hz (2nd valve)
Bb 230.4Hz-- 2.68hz lower----- Bb233.08Hz (1st valve)
A 213.34Hz ---6.66hz lower--- A220Hz (1-2 valves)
Ab 204.80Hz ---2.85hz lower----Ab207.65Hz (2-3 valves)
G 192Hz -------4hz lower------ G196hz (1-3 valves)
F# 180Hz ------5hz lower-------F#185hz (1-2-3 valves)

[Danbassin]

Hi - interesting question that I can't promise to give you a direct answer about.

This is for a few reasons:

1) Considering pitch only in Hertz can be a bit problematic, here, when considering an instrument that was built around the overtones on a C fundamental optimized more-or-less for standard pitch fluctuations in current ensembles (say 435-443 +/- depending on mouthpiece volume and the pitch center/approach of the player).
1a) Most modern C trumpet slides are then optimized (more-or-less) to lower this fundamental (within the given, standard tuning) 2, 1, and somewhere near 3 semi-tones.

*Given these factors, I would suggest considering the individual pitches you're asking about in CENTS relative to their equal-tempered, A~440 standards.* This will simply make the conversation a little easier for us, and hopefully a bit clearer for others interested in different tuning systems. THIS WOULD BE AN OPPORTUNE MOMENT TO MENTION "The Microtonal Trumpet" project of the past several decades by Stephen Altoft.

That said, and returning to 1a), SOME C trumpets may be equipped with a slightly shorter 1st slide to ensure that D5 falls in-tune. I've used horns with this set-up for about 25yrs. I don't mind giving a wee slide pull on the top-line F, nor do I mind giving a bit more pull on the 1-2 A in and below the staff. My horns are also built with a slightly shorted 3rd slide to allow a perfectly in-tune 'high' A (882Hz as my horn was built for A=441) and to help with the centering of the high Ab. So, with MY C trumpet, and also some other models which are out there, we have to pull a little more for low Ds and C#s, but it is most certainly worth it in the long run.

These slight discrepancies keep an objective answer to the "Can the C trumpet..." question challenging. Additionally, my suggestion about Cents rather than Hertz can be helpful, as the number of Hertz in a given octave will double in the next, or halve in the previous. Cents just tell you how far from where the horn would otherwise want it to be...

Which brings us to:

2) What is an in-tune C (or any other) trumpet?

We've got a series of several bugles, with all sorts of compromises designed around different philosophies of physical approach, tonal concept, and other player equipment choices. On this last matter, I play a large mouthpiece that requires my horns to be built just a little shorter in order to be able to play at 441 or 442 (at the START of the gig - and then hopefully be bale to keep-up with where the ensemble pitch goes over the course of a show). Though this is my preferred mouthpiece, I've had to sell horns in the past because the only way I'd be able to use them in a 442 ensemble would be to use a shallower 'pops' mouthpiece.

OK - we're starting to get somewhere.

3) Do you currently have a C trumpet that you can take readings with, using a reliable tuner that will give you a readout of the frequency you're playing? -If so, please do that and report back to us.
-I assume you don't currently, which will bring me back to a central part of your question: your sop trbn/slide trpt has a fundamental of Bb. C trumpets tend to be a compromise of Bb parts and manufacturing strategies to get the horn to play in-tune with itself. Once you take ANY horn and pull (or push) its tuning slide past what might be considered a 'reasonable' amount (the standard 440-ish tuning range I mentioned, above) the horn stops playing in-tune with itself - those bugle partials no longer line-up in the way the manufacturer intended.
-Add to this the changes to the horn's playing characteristics (tone and timbre) and you may find that your results *may* be on the mark, frequency-wise, but you may be fighting and lipping...and therefore MISSING the sop trbn slide for fine adjustments.

If you're not already familiar with Stephen's work - he has had several horns modified, not only with microtonal rotors on the main slide, but also new custom/replacement slides to allow for playing in various systems of tuning. If it also wasn't clear, the great majority of my microtonal playing, composing, and improvising has been oriented around equal temperament. One of my most important microtonal and improvisation teachers, the late Joe Maneri, worked in 72-note equal temperament, which begins to approach (quite closely) the Just intervals found on the 5th, 7th, and 11th harmonics. The Maneri-Sims (Ezra Sims was also a gifted Boston-area microtonalist) system of notation I have found very useful in my compositions, which bridge from 12-note equal temperament to overtone spectra, equal-tempered microtones, and specific harmonics. This way of thinking of both just intonation systems as well as dividing the octave into smaller equal parts has informed and influenced my improvising in a big way...

To attempt to close this long post while also re-opening the conversation...what are your musical goals? What kind of music are you making currently on the sop trbn and what are you looking to do differently with this C trumpet idea?

After taking Joe's class at NEC and then assisting him as a quasi-TA for the next two years, I felt emboldened to share one observation on the microtonal trumpet with him, and I've also held onto one truism that applies here:
A) The three-valved trumpet, in the context of a microtonal spectrum, is akin to the valve-less trumpet at the dawn of chromaticism;
B) Unless you have an extraordinarily in-tune instrument for 12-note music, your results for playing with smaller and different intervals is likely to be marred by stand-out differences of timbre, which will severely limit your musical results...to say nothing about reducing the 'fun factor' of playing a horn.

My 2 Cents...or 3rd Harmonic!

Happy practicing,
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

[harpofdavid]

I wasn't excepting such a thorough response! It brought up things I never thought about. The soprano trombone (slide trumpet) will play the 1st & 3rd partials in-tune, but noticed I have to pull the slide out slightly to adjust for the 2nd-5th partials and pull in for the 4th partial.

I am interested in the C trumpet because it would be easy to hit the C partials rather then using a different slide position for each partial for C G C E G(7th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd). They don't make a C soprano trombone which is why I have an interest in the C trumpet, but don't know if can play in the frequencies I desire.

To get the darkest timbre possible out of the trombone, I am using a ACB FX hybrid mouthpiece so it sounds more like a trombone then a trumpet. This mouthpiece is harder to play in-tune then a normal trumpet mouthpiece and the pitch goes up slightly which works out to my benefit since the B 240hz needs to be raised.

The easiest way to see if this will work is to download a specific tuning app that can adjust for temperament. The one I suggest that works best for me is "airyware tuner app" You can find this app on google and apple play store.

I made a video on youtube to explain how to setup the app for just intonation and A426.67Hz frequency. If someone could try this on their C trumpet to see how well it plays in-tune that would greatly help me.


Link

[harpofdavid]

One thing I would like to add is when playing in just intonation with C as the root only the key of C major, C minor, Ab major, and E minor will play perfectly in tune.

The seven positions on the trumpet will not all be in-tune in the harmonic series of partials. Those positions will be B (2nd position), Bb (3rd position), and F# (7th position)

To answer your question Daniel, my musical goal is to have a trumpet that can play in tune with the piano tuned to just intonation at C256Hz. I know the soprano trombone can play more in-tune, but can the C trumpet which seems easier to play come close to the intonation I am asking?