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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If possible, I'd like to get back to question of how a player can best learn 'to play well' - and that needn't include 'what are the mechanics of good playing'.

If a 'good teacher' is involved, the teacher can recognize problems that the player is not aware of - and ought to be able to give good instruction or guidance on how to correct problems.

Without a 'good teacher' or being self-taught the situation is more complicated because the player might not recognize that something 'wrong' is being done - in fact the player might be trying to improve their doing of the 'wrong thing' in the belief that it is correct and they just need more practice to make it work.

So, what tools and education would be helpful for the teacher or student to: avoid problems from the start, recognize problems, and make corrections?
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
Embouchure needs to work in conjunction with breathing, tonguing, fingering, etc. No single element of good brass technique will make the others function well on their own. One of my points is we need to accurately address each as needed. The main point is that the cultural tradition we're stuck with in brass pedagogy actively discourages embouchure analysis, so that's the element that needs the most "cheerleading" to help more understand it.


Thank you for your explanation. I think it goes a long way to balance the argument I've been seeing on this thread.

So, based on your assessment, in percentages, how many students generally need specific addresses with their embouchure function in:
1) high level conservatory
2) high level university
3) mid level university
Perhaps many great players already come in with great functioning embouchures or close to great. I agree that for the student that needs the embouchure addressed, it is vital to provide that to them. But I also find it hard to believe that the kids who make it to the top, without having the embouchure addressed (in your estimation and mine), would have necessarily greatly benefited from talk about the embouchure rather than whatever it is that got them there. Again, not arguing against you, just trying to tease out this position because it is still fairly obfuscated (yours less than the rest of the "embouchure experts" on here).

What do you think about the embouchure in this video?

Link
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:

Perhaps many great players already come in with great functioning embouchures or close to great. I agree that for the student that needs the embouchure addressed, it is vital to provide that to them. But I also find it hard to believe that the kids who make it to the top, without having the embouchure addressed (in your estimation and mine), would have necessarily greatly benefited from talk about the embouchure rather than whatever it is that got them there.


I think part of the issue is that, for better or worse, the people who go on to be the most visibly successful players are often felt to be the most desirable teachers, and to have the last word on playing/teaching. No doubt there are some great things about that - only top players can really share input about what's necessary to play at that level, but relatively few of those top players didn't already have high-functioning embouchures by the end of their teens, so not too many of them really know how to teach it to those who need embouchure help. Spending lesson time on how to learn and teach embouchure technique might not have helped those top players find success, but if they don't learn it, and their experiences of playing are treated uncritically by their admirers as being definitive, we end up with our present situation where a big part of pedagogy is actively ignored or suppressed.

Have you ever read The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle? There's an interesting section where it talks about the early day of teaching pilots to fly, and how it was believed at the time that flying was an innate skill that couldn't be taught. If you had asked the people who were successful pilots in that era how to be a pilot, they would probably have said just to do what comes naturally, or something along those lines. That worked for them, but a sizeable portion of other aspiring pilots died in their first attempts at flight. Until someone found a way to teach it, everyone thought it was natural, but the fix didn't come from the people who found success in the old model.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
...
So, based on your assessment, in percentages, how many students generally need specific addresses with their embouchure function in: ...

----------------------------------------
This is an example of 1 individual, but it I think it might apply to many players who struggle with embouchure mechanics.

Here an old thread that mentions Tom Hooten's embouchure change experience.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1424312#1424312
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
I think part of the issue is that, for better or worse, the people who go on to be the most visibly successful players are often felt to be the most desirable teachers


I couldn't agree more. I said something along these lines earlier in this thread when I said: "I would say most "teachers" are more musical coaches than actual teachers." Perhaps it was too implicit but I don't think most teachers have the knowledge or capability of actually improving a student significantly especially if they have mechanical issues. Edit: But it's so inspiring to hear them up close and in person. Plus, if you are mechanically sound, it's a boost to get their stamp of approval (if they are honest).

Again, I agree with most of the things being said in this thread. I wouldn't necessarily approach it the way that its being presented in this thread, but that's because I have my own experiences and my own style informed by my consumption of great teachers.

When I was on my own trumpet journey, I found myself walking away from lessons with top players wondering what I had spent my money on. Rarely did they have something to address the questions I was had. I was a natural player, then I wasn't. Similar to Mike Sailors, at some point, my chops were a mess. But I've found a way for myself and have also found a way to pass on my knowledge to others. Perhaps I could have benefited from Reinhart's teachings, but I have discovered other avenues by being "ignorant." My nomenclature is different, but I think the end result is a functional embouchure. But, maybe I'm just being "naive."

Edit: that does not mean I am shunning Reinhart, I am now curious more than ever what is has to offer and curious if it differs at all from what I already know and teach. But I am guessing my approach will unlikely change.


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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
This is an example of 1 individual, but it I think it might apply to many players who struggle with embouchure mechanics.


Very familiar with Hooten's embouchure change story. The videos are certainly useful to hear the mental side of going through an embouchure change!
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bg
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I have not found much detailed written material about the 'Adam Method', but this site has some interesting items - https://fishingtrumpet.com/articles/


I have been very hesitant to speak on these public forums. I usually prefer to keep my opinions and observations confined to those who solicit them.

I studied with Mr. Jacobs for two years, and with Mr. Adam for five years. With each of them, I made cassette recordings of every lesson, and listened repeatedly to these recordings in the days following each lesson.

I believe that Mr. Adam was concerned with something he called the "kinesthetic energy response" of the embouchure. ("Kinetic" is the proper term.) He felt that mouthpiece buzzing might encourage the student to tighten the lip muscle, thus inhibiting the response of the aperture to the feedback loop generated between the player and horn. Hence, his unwillingness to talk about the specifics of embouchure mechanics may have been strategic. It certainly wasn't because he lacked understanding. His description of the buccinator muscle being active and important was correct.

No single teacher understands everything. Mr. Adam often acknowledged this in my lessons, with his frequent use of the phrase "there's more than one way to skin a snake." However, my issues leading to my seeking lessons with him had to do with embouchure function. Although I had truly amazing lessons and learned a TON about brass playing, and possibly learned even more about teaching, my chop issues only worsened during these years. The issue was physical, having to do with mouthpiece placement. I'm happy to have continued to seek advice and to have found solutions. This does not, in any way, diminish my tremendous respect for Mr. Adam, nor my appreciation for all the many gifts he shared with me and others.

However, I do believe that Mr. Jacobs' theories have been worse for the brass playing community, as a whole, than any other ideas in the recent history of music study. He was also an inspiring teacher, and meant well in his genuine intention to help people. He was simply wrong. The tuba requires a different strategy than do the other brass instruments. When its techniques are applied to high brass, the results can often be disastrous.

I am now in a position of regularly advising brass players who have suffered playing injuries, as well as teaching those who have technical frustrations which seem impassible. I believe we are now in the midst of a very serious crisis. More players than ever before are suffering facial muscle injuries while playing. In nearly every case that I have witnessed (which by now, number in the dozens) the player was told one or more of the following things:

1. You don't need to think about embouchure.
2. Keep your face relaxed.
3. Use large quantities of air.
4. Use air flow, rather than air compression.
5. Move to larger, less resistant equipment.
6. Keep your oral cavity open.

These theories may serve a tubist well, but will often not translate to the higher brass instrumentalists. Injuries are occurring at every level of the music field. From discussing the training backgrounds of the injured musicians, it is clear that the "Song and Wind" philosophy is usually connected with these incidents.

The good news is that any muscle injury can benefit from physical therapy, and these injuries do not need to be career ending. In order for the player to continue successfully, they must also address the causal factors ,and change embouchure and breathing habits which left them vulnerable to the injury.

Again, I have been largely absent from TH for many years now, but when I see somebody asking if it's better for a student to be unconscious or conscious of technique, I now feel a real duty to warn.

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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know some people might get angry about this, but, for my part, I think it's helpful, reasonable, and balanced input.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
bg:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know some people might get angry about this, but, for my part, I think it's helpful, reasonable, and balanced input.


Agreed! It's quite valuable input from somebody who has first hand experience studying with the originators of the "schools". Your words resonate with my feelings on shortcomings of the schools mentioned. Thanks for putting your TH hiatus on hold.

It is a shame that often those with injuries who were part of the "song and wind" philosophy then don't have the tools to claw their way back. I have a colleague who is injured who is struggling because they are resorting to the thing that injured them in the first place.

Question for my own edification. We seem to have extremely similar worldviews so I am curious what are your pillars for setting up a 9 year old who doesn't have the best body awareness. I've been treating it as a spectrum of consciousness (managing the best I can without overwhelming) and slowly ramping it up as they advance. But do you think teachers should be doing more outright from the start in terms of physical habits?

Great write-up.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
bg: Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

+1

To add to the discussion: I've found for myself that focusing on the mechanics (which my early teachers did) led to an overfocus on trying control indivudal muscles, which in turn introduced way too much strain into my overall playing. Shifting focus to the sound helped overcome that obstacle, however I've also learned that certain areas of playing that require a specific technique, which going by sound/ease of playing alone didn't help me discover. Also, to make the most of fundamentals, I found it extremely helpful to know how to do them properly...the 'play these and they'll fix your issues' approach limited their usefulness to me.

For me, the best approach is a delicate mix of knowing roughly what to do and then trying to make that happen in a natural, relaxed way (which I found I cannot do if a teacher stitting next to me giving very specific instructions or restrictions). Effectively, some info about mechanics, but not on a micromanging level.
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PH
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:

I believe that Mr. Adam was concerned with something he called the "kinesthetic energy response" of the embouchure. ("Kinetic" is the proper term.)


First, thanks, Brad for an excellent post. However, one minor correction.

kin·es·the·sia
/ˌkinəsˈTHēZH(ē)ə/

noun
awareness of the position and movement of the parts of the body by means of sensory organs (proprioceptors) in the muscles and joints.

So Adam's approach was that we program the body to function in an optimal way through the use of drills combined with a sound model and guided mental focus on the aspects he guided one toward. "The Routine" was a customized set of drills for each student presented with a customized sound model (constantly demonstrated and refined throughout the lesson) and customized approach to tempo, articulatin, dynamics, etc.

This use of a personally designed routine of drills for each student develops a more effective way of playing (physically) thorugh repetition and things developed in the routine carried over into musical contexts. That isn't a lot different from how Carmine taught (or from what I gather from their students how Claude Gordon, or Maggio, or Dr. Reinhardt, or Jeff Smiley, or...)

The goal is to create what many call "muscle memory" through repetition while keeping the student's mental focus on musical aspects. In my experience, focusing on music for most people (maybe there are "natural players," but I've met few) without a fundamental basis that is solidified in drills and technical work (what Carmine called "clinical practice") has a fairly low success rate. For most people, buzzing the mouthpiece programs in a different "muscle memory" than we use for playing the entire instrument. BTW, so does playing a lot in mutes. I never had worse chops than after a week playing the Russ Morgan book where virtually everything is in one or another mute.

I think the thing is that Adam's approach left the analysis/diagnosis to the teacher...something that works less than maximally effectively (a) for self teaching, (b)if the teacher is not as competent as Adam or a SMALL handful of his best students, or (c) if the student misses the point of copying the prescribed sound model. My first stint working with him sounds similar to yours. I learned a lot, but hit a wall because I didn't understand exactly what I was supposed to be doing. A few years with Carmine changed some things for me and when I went back to Adam (grad school years) my playing really took off.

I use the info in the Reinhardt and Willey books, Dave's website, etc to help with diagnosis and prescription. But I implement it in a way that is informed by my greater familiarity with Adam's & Caruso's methods of teaching and approach to practice.

Everybody finds their own way, in the final analysis. Thanks for the great discussion. It's not always a question of "ignorance" but different understandings of how to best apply and implement the knowledge.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
If possible, I'd like to get back to question of how a player can best learn 'to play well' - and that needn't include 'what are the mechanics of good playing'.

If a 'good teacher' is involved, the teacher can recognize problems that the player is not aware of - and ought to be able to give good instruction or guidance on how to correct problems.

. . .

So, what tools and education would be helpful for the teacher or student to: avoid problems from the start, recognize problems, and make corrections?


Jay, I'm not entirely certain the direction you want to go. I think that the tools one needs to teach and practice in a way to avoid problems and make corrections is understanding what the mechanics of good playing is to start. That provides an objective way to assess what is working well already and what needs improvement.

abontrumpet wrote:
So, based on your assessment, in percentages, how many students generally need specific addresses with their embouchure function in:
1) high level conservatory
2) high level university
3) mid level university


100% on all three, with a big caveat below because I'm not really answering the question you're asking.

abontrumpet wrote:
Perhaps many great players already come in with great functioning embouchures or close to great. I agree that for the student that needs the embouchure addressed, it is vital to provide that to them. But I also find it hard to believe that the kids who make it to the top, without having the embouchure addressed (in your estimation and mine), would have necessarily greatly benefited from talk about the embouchure rather than whatever it is that got them there.


I do believe that the more accomplished the musician plays "naturally" (or having the good fortune to be guided correctly for their physiology in the first place) the less the chance that there is going to be a major need to make corrections in the embouchure mechanics. So the higher the entrance standards of a music school, the fewer students that are going to need to make corrections to be successful in their degree programs.

But just because a musician is playing at a high standard already does not mean that they can't benefit from improving their understanding of the mechanics of good technique (all aspects of it, including breathing, tonguing, fingering/slide technique, posture, grip, etc.).

abontrumpet wrote:
I was a natural player, then I wasn't. Similar to Mike Sailors, at some point, my chops were a mess.


This is so common, I think almost anyone who has played for long enough will get this to some degree or another. Many of the musicians who contact me for help are professional players who have some issue going on they want help fixing. They know something isn't working right, but they don't have the understanding to figure it out. Sometimes it's something they've always dealt with, but been good at covering up. Sometimes the problem they cover up starts to become so bad they can't cover it up any longer. Sometimes it's something they've never noticed before.

So when I suggest that 100% of brass students need to address embouchure technique it's not just so that they can get through their degree track and play a good senior recital and get into a good grad school, it's so that they can adopt a lifetime of good playing habits and have the conceptual tools to work their own way out of problems.

Not to mention that they are likely going to give lessons at some point in their careers, or at least offer advice on an Internet forum. Knowing what good brass mechanics are (again, all the different facets of playing technique) provides them with the tools to help their students more efficiently than the trial and error approach of letting the body figure itself out.

abontrumpet wrote:
What do you think about the embouchure in this video?


I'll add this video of Martin too, because it shows some good views of his chops for a longer time.

The first thing I'll point out is the stability of his entire embouchure form. His mouth corners stay in place for his entire range, they don't pull forward into a smile or pucker in towards the mouthpiece. His chin area is also flat and firm. His jaw isn't completely static, but it is very stable and doesn't make any excessive movements that would disrupt his embouchure stability or pull the mouthpiece to a different spot on his lips. Brad mentioned his agreement of Adam's viewpoint that the buccinator muscles (the muscles of the cheek, they do connect to the obicularis oris and are responsible for drawing the cheeks in) are important. While I do agree that they play a role, I feel that the Bertsch paper I linked to shows the bulk of the muscular effort should probably be focused on the area around the mouth corners and chin.

As an aside, some players will correctly puff their cheeks, usually in a particular part of their range. For example, trumpet players with small mouths will sometimes puff their cheeks for loud high playing (lead trumpet). Doing so correctly requires the musician to keep the cheek puff back away from the mouth corners (see Dizzy Gillespie).

Getting back to Martin's chops, his placement looks high enough on the lips so that there is more upper lip inside the mouthpiece and his air stream is probably going down. His embouchure motion is to pull down to ascend a push up to descend. It's very common for players with these embouchure characteristics to play with a receded jaw and a horn angle tilted down, as Martin does. So I would use his embouchure as a good example of what I prefer to call a "medium high placement" embouchure type, because these downstream brass musicians tend to have a mouthpiece placement that isn't as close to the nose as the other basic downstream embouchure type.

stuartissimo wrote:
To add to the discussion: I've found for myself that focusing on the mechanics (which my early teachers did) led to an overfocus on trying control indivudal muscles, which in turn introduced way too much strain into my overall playing. Shifting focus to the sound helped overcome that obstacle, however I've also learned that certain areas of playing that require a specific technique, which going by sound/ease of playing alone didn't help me discover. Also, to make the most of fundamentals, I found it extremely helpful to know how to do them properly...the 'play these and they'll fix your issues' approach limited their usefulness to me.


Now of course I don't know your playing now, let alone then, but here are just a few things we can think about here.

Perhaps the playing mechanic things you were told to focus on were actually wrong for what you needed to be doing, which would introduce strain. Or maybe it was close, but there was just enough off that it wasn't clicking.

Perhaps the focus you originally did on playing technique actually set you up better to focus on the sound. It doesn't always need to all slot in place for the intrinsic strategy to be more effective. Sometimes I will note a musician states something like, "I working on my {playing technique X} for weeks and never got it, but when I stopped working about it {playing technique X} fixed itself. We can't discount the effort put into playing correctly as irrelevant just because it needed to be put into the context of making music to solidify.

Lastly, what you describe really sounds like finding a good balance between an intrinsic (sound driven) approach and an explicit (mechanics focused) approach. As a practical matter, I think all teachers do this to some degree or another, but many of the pedagogues we hold in highest esteem actively discourage concern about playing mechanics and are often cited as authorities on how to best teach playing mechanics. The end result here is that we end up keeping our students (*consults thesaurus*) illiterate/innocent/naive/oblivious/obtuse of the tools they need to be successful in the long term.

Dave
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
I do believe that the more accomplished the musician plays "naturally" (or having the good fortune to be guided correctly for their physiology in the first place) the less the chance that there is going to be a major need to make corrections in the embouchure mechanics. So the higher the entrance standards of a music school, the fewer students that are going to need to make corrections to be successful in their degree programs.

But just because a musician is playing at a high standard already does not mean that they can't benefit from improving their understanding of the mechanics of good technique (all aspects of it, including breathing, tonguing, fingering/slide technique, posture, grip, etc.).
. . .
Many of the musicians who contact me for help are professional players who have some issue going on they want help fixing.


I am just quoting something from your last post to say: I think I get a grasp of your approach and thanks for answering. I generally agree with you because you gave a very broad answer to my specific question. It's a response that is hard to disagree with and much more tempered than before. I think our approaches our different but goals are the same. Anyway, thanks again!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to reiterate some points I was trying to make earlier that I think got lost in all the sea of information and back and forth.

Please don't mistake my advocacy for making embouchure technique part of the cannon of brass pedagogy to be a snapshot of how I teach my private lessons. If an adult is taking a one shot or occasional lesson with me specifically to fix some chop issues, then that will be the focus of the lesson. Most of my students, on the other hand, might get a little bit of it from time to time, but I try to structure the lessons in a way that some time at the beginning is working on playing mechanics and then we'll move on to playing music expressively. Some lessons won't get any discussion of technique at all.

When I was a grad student knee deep into my dissertation research my mentor, John Seidel, warned me to not look so closely for embouchure problems that I miss something else that should be prioritized. It was advice I took to heart and gladly do so today as well. This advice cuts both ways, I feel. Those of us who want to make it 99% about sound conception and breathing can miss something else that should be addressed.

This is the main reason I advocate for making a discussion of playing technique as objective as possible. When I am diagnosing a mechanical issue, whether it's in the embouchure or breathing or whatever, I am looking for something that I can see and hear that correlates with good or bad playing. It's true that sometimes players need to take a step backwards so that they can take two steps forward, but any correction I make is because I see an immediate benefit. For example, the trumpet player that I used as an example before had immediate improvements in his tone and intonation in his upper register by making the corrections I had him try.

Teaching beginners was mentioned a few times earlier. When I work with beginning music students I tend to spend time on posture and holding the instrument correctly and consistently. For brass students this has an enormous benefit on all areas of technique, including embouchure. I also work quite a bit with woodwind, percussion, and string beginning students and find it equally important for those instruments too. But consider the left hand grip on trumpet, it is responsible for bringing the instrument to the lips (and also making the embouchure motion, but I don't mention that to beginners). When the left hand is used consistently well the placement on the lips is consistent and can be developed faster.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:

Jay, I'm not entirely certain the direction you want to go. I think that the tools one needs to teach and practice in a way to avoid problems and make corrections is understanding what the mechanics of good playing is to start. That provides an objective way to assess what is working well already and what needs improvement. ...

----------------------------------------------
In addition to a player learning about the physical actions of playing (by direct or indirect ways), I think it would be helpful for players to recognize when they are doing it correctly, or when what they are doing isn't giving the desired result. Some type of 'yardstick' that a player could use to recognize and evaluate what their actions actually accomplish, compared to the 'desired accomplishment'.

An example is the often suggested "use less mouthpiece pressure". I think that suggestion is usually made when the teacher believes that some important lip and embouchure function is being impeded by excess rim pressure. But the student might not know what that function is, or what specific type of rim pressure adjustments could enable better functioning.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

In addition to a player learning about the physical actions of playing (by direct or indirect ways), I think it would be helpful for players to recognize when they are doing it correctly, or when what they are doing isn't giving the desired result. Some type of 'yardstick' that a player could use to recognize and evaluate what their actions actually accomplish, compared to the 'desired accomplishment'.


Well, there are a number of different yardsticks we can use. How it sounds is probably the most important one for us to use. But we should recognize that sounding better doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to sound the best in the long term. Musicians can get better at playing wrong.

How it feels is another indication, but playing sensations can be very unreliable. Doing something different can feel very strange, whether or not it makes a correction. The amount of effort it feels to play is often helpful to determine if you're on the right track.

There are also the visual cues that teachers use and students can be trained how to use them in the practice room. Using a mirror to observe anything from posture to mouth corners to horn angle can be helpful, particularly since the playing sensation of doing something new will start to feel less strange the more it's practiced. Sometimes we end up over-correcting if we try to recapture the initial "strangeness" of the playing sensation, so knowing what it looks like when it works correctly can help us avoid overdoing a correction.

JayKosta wrote:
An example is the often suggested "use less mouthpiece pressure". I think that suggestion is usually made when the teacher believes that some important lip and embouchure function is being impeded by excess rim pressure. But the student might not know what that function is, or what specific type of rim pressure adjustments could enable better functioning.


Mouthpiece pressure is an interesting example to discuss here. The first thing I would want to establish is whether a student is using excessive mouthpiece pressure. How can we tell? As it turns out, testing experienced trumpet teachers for their abilities to visually determine whether the mouthpiece pressure is correct shows that we're pretty bad at it. And experienced trumpet players turned out to use much more pressure than was anticipated (the researchers thought their equipment was malfunctioning at first).

Science Proves Musical Myths Wrong

I would also point out for our discussion that too much mouthpiece pressure isn't always the problem, it's often using too little. Particularly in the low register.

But once you've established that there is excessive mouthpiece pressure I think it's important to establish if that is a cause or a symptom. A mouthpiece placement not in its optimal spot for the individual's anatomy, for example, can make the musician work a lot harder than needed. In this case, excessive mouthpiece pressure might be a symptom. If you can fix the cause (e.g., an incorrect mouthpiece placement), then the excessive pressure can go away without having to directly address it.

Other issues with mouthpiece pressure aren't necessarily that the pressure is too much, but that the embouchure formation isn't firmed enough or in the correct formation to accept the pressure that happens during normal brass playing. For example, the smile embouchure stretches the lips, making them thinner and less able to withstand normal mouthpiece pressure. In a case like this I wouldn't be trying to reduce the pressure, I'd be trying to correct the embouchure formation.

In all these hypothetical examples my approach would be to first determine exactly what the cause and effect is, then help the student understand what specific mechanical correction the goal is. Then work with the student so that he or she experiences the correction, or at least getting the student moving in the right direction enough that he or she can begin to work on that on their own.

I don't believe keeping the student in the dark about what correction you're trying to make is the best approach. It leaves too much room for spinning the wheels in the practice room, taking things too far in the direction you want to go, or getting better at covering up the problem. It also means that down the road they will not have the conceptual tools to work their own way out of problems without trial and error ("I was a natural player, then I wasn't.") or help students that have similar issues. That doesn't mean I want students to be focused on their mouth corners, for example, while playing a rehearsal or performance. That's for the practice room and their attention on good embouchure form (or whatever) should be confined there and to a certain portion of their overall practice.

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have taken SO MANY lessons over the years, with some of the worlds best teachers, all in efforts to try and figure out some of my severe playing limitations that have plagued me my entire career. It wasn't until 2020 when I took a lesson with Dave Sheetz, a PIVOT system instructor, that he was able to accurately assess the issue and offer corrections that made an IMMEDIATE improvement to my playing that were longer lasting than some of the "bag of tricks" type stuff you get in normal lessons.

Furthermore, a few weeks ago I was having an issue with my playing that I couldn't resolve, and so I took an emergency lesson with Doug Elliot, another PIVOT system teacher, and he was able to diagnose and correct it in under 20 minutes or so.

Point being, when there is a physical issue, having someone with actual knowledge that can help diagnose and correct is far more beneficial and practical than any of the other traditional methods. Who would go to a medical doctor that used as their primary method of treatment the Harold Hill "Think" system to improve health?

Also, now that I have the embouchure corrections in place, all of the things that I've learned from Bobby Shew, Roger Ingram, Jim Manley, Channing Philbrick, et al now make SO MUCH MORE SENSE.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happened to come across an article published in the Journal of Applied Sport Psychology that I think is directly relevant to this discussion. The article, "Implementing the Five-A Model of Technical Refinement: Key Roles of the Sport Psychologist" by Howie J. Carson and Dave Collins, discusses a research based strategy for helping athletes make corrections to already established technique. Their five stages are:

1. Analysis
2. Awareness
3. Adjustment
4. (Re)Automation
5. Assurance

In the analysis part of the process the athlete (or musician, in our case) is not part of the process. The coach (or teacher) analyzes the athlete's (or musician's) technique while the subject is not considering the technique at all. However, in the next two steps, awareness and adjustment, the athlete (music student) is instructed on the specific mechanical corrections that need to be made and how to best practice them.

The implicit goal oriented approach (practice with a good sound concept in mind) is only undertaken beginning in the 4th part of the process, (re)automation. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, this is an important part of making any correction, but undertaking it too soon without ensuring that the modification to playing technique is understood and successful with conscious effort is not as effective as some of us think.

Quote:
To deautomate the aspect of technique requiring refinement (hereafter termed the target variable), athletes are required to consciously apply a narrow and internal focus of attention, which enables access to the relevant movement component within the memory trace. If control over the target variable remained largely subconscious, as is thought ideal for performance, it would be difficult to see how any long-term changes could be initiated. Indeed, Rendell, Farrow, Masters, and Plummer have demonstrated the limitations of implicit strategies in this particular context. More specifically, athletes counting the number of tones overlaid on music soundtracks (i.e., an effort not to think about the movement) during netball shooting practice to a higher than regulation ring led to an eventual lower ball flight trajectory instead of an intended higher trajectory, despite athletes not being aware of any change taking place. In short, a conscious focus seems to be an essential precursor of effective motoric change.


I've removed the citations in the above quote to make it easier to read. The bold emphasis is mine.

I've written up some more thoughts on this paper and how we can perhaps use this strategy in music pedagogy here. I originally came across this research on the Bulletproof Musician blog here, which has many more thoughts relevant to this discussion.

Dave
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