Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:41 pm Post subject: How to get this sweet and full sound?
David Daws has been my example for decades now when it comes to sound phrasing and technic. But no matter how long I practice, my sound is nowhere near to his.
Always wonder how you get to having this sweet and full sound.
_________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
That really is a gorgeous tone _________________ Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: How to get this sweet and full sound?
Dieter Z wrote:
David Daws has been my example for decades now when it comes to sound phrasing and technic. But no matter how long I practice, my sound is nowhere near to his.
Always wonder how you get to having this sweet and full sound.
He sounds great and he's obviously skilled but the horn and mouthpiece surely has an impact. You're also hearing added reverb.
Do you have any recorded examples of yourself? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:19 pm Post subject:
To me he sounds like a typical British cornet player, Besson large bore, big deep cup (I guess!) and thousands hours of practice, with emphasis on tone and flexibility.
To be honest: I don’t really like that sound, ever listened to Hans Gansch on cornet?
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject:
I heard this Solo with Hans Gansch several times and he definitely sounds great.
Absolute wonderful interpretation of the song. Sound to me is somewhat similar to David Daws, but without the Vibrato. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
Peter Bond has put a lot of thought into developing a resonant sound. Here is a recent video of him describing and demonstrating the process of helping students develop their sound:
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:08 am Post subject:
Thanks for the link. It's great advise for the situation he pointed out.
I think, what I am trying to figure out, has more to do with the "quality" of the vibration of the lips and how to get that. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
Hardware aside, he might press the corners slightly more inward (into the center), and use a slightly lower jaw, leading to a larger oral cavity. More 0 than O, in other words.
But that's just what works for me right now, so YMMV. _________________ 1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music
Peter Bond has put a lot of thought into developing a resonant sound. Here is a recent video of him describing and demonstrating the process of helping students develop their sound:
Both of the cornet players have wonderful tone, for sure.
It seems apparent that the British player has significant post production sound engineering behind his final product and more effort to acquire the recording, i.e. sound equipment and use of it. The German player is in a pretty common sounding acoustic space with little sound engineering in post.
For me, this means that comparing the two is pretty useless beyond the enjoyment level, as far as tone production is concerned.
Years ago, Flip Oakes played some recordings of a pretty famous cornet player that will remain unnamed here. He sounded good! Then, Flip told me that he had gone to hear the player in concert (or possibly in studio) and described his sound as scrawny and not very resonant. Flip's point is that sound engineers are worth their weight in gold and can turn mediocre tone quality into something special, if they're good at what they do. That is not to say that the Brish fellow has mediocre tone quality. It is to say that we cannot judge everything by recordings.
Peter Bond's demonstration, from the clip above, gives us a chance to make a comparison within a single video and with a single player. He produces both a bad sound and good sound. We gain from this type of contrast, even though Peter was probably only using his cell phone on a music stand to record the clip. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject:
shofarguy wrote:
Dayton wrote:
Peter Bond has put a lot of thought into developing a resonant sound. Here is a recent video of him describing and demonstrating the process of helping students develop their sound:
His book "The Singing Trumpet" offers great insights into this.
I miss Peter being on the boards here. Great demonstration!
I follow him on FB and he is a hoot. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:21 pm Post subject:
shofarguy wrote:
Both of the cornet players have wonderful tone, for sure.
It seems apparent that the British player has significant post production sound engineering behind his final product and more effort to acquire the recording, i.e. sound equipment and use of it. The German player is in a pretty common sounding acoustic space with little sound engineering in post.
For me, this means that comparing the two is pretty useless beyond the enjoyment level, as far as tone production is concerned.
Years ago, Flip Oakes played some recordings of a pretty famous cornet player that will remain unnamed here. He sounded good! Then, Flip told me that he had gone to hear the player in concert (or possibly in studio) and described his sound as scrawny and not very resonant. Flip's point is that sound engineers are worth their weight in gold and can turn mediocre tone quality into something special, if they're good at what they do. That is not to say that the Brish fellow has mediocre tone quality. It is to say that we cannot judge everything by recordings.
Peter Bond's demonstration, from the clip above, gives us a chance to make a comparison within a single video and with a single player. He produces both a bad sound and good sound. We gain from this type of contrast, even though Peter was probably only using his cell phone on a music stand to record the clip.
???? I see only superficial speculation here. Both the clips of Daws and Hans Gansch seem to be made in a live performance. At least no fancy clips at all. I see no reason that the first clip is heavily edited nor that the second is not.
Further, if you consider it therefore useless to compare these clips we all have to accept that any comparison or comment on any recorded piece of music is useless from now on. In Hollannd we eeecall that: throwing away the kid with the bathing water.
Then, a famous (unnamed!) cornet player who can’t play? Just regular musician’s gossip? And do you realise, that using Flips’ quote in this context connected with your assumption that mr. Daws clip was heavily post production engineered, form together an accusation or at least a suspicion of cheating?
That it is quite possible he has a mediocre sound that is upgraded by a sound engineer?
And ‘probably’ (there we go again) mr. Bonds’ clips are not edited. I don’t think so either but mr. Bond write books and seems professionally involved with teaching so you and I both can’t be sure about that. The consequence of your own words makes the whole video of mr. Bond useless at least for comparing the different sounds. There may be no differences, only another setting of a few buttons.
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Australia
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:57 am Post subject:
shofarguy wrote:
Flip's point is that sound engineers are worth their weight in gold and can turn mediocre tone quality into something special, if they're good at what they do. That is not to say that the Brish fellow has mediocre tone quality. It is to say that we cannot judge everything by recordings.
That's generally the problem that I have with Wynton Marsalis' classical recordings, because they're mastered in a manner which tries to make Wynton the front and centre "rock star" of the recording. His carnaval album, which was done on a cornet, when listening with headphones, there are plenty of examples of slight weirdness, I can only presume is from double tracking.
As for the topic of cornet sound, in general, huge mouthpieces help, and this is one area, where I went from a Denis Wick 4, to a Yamaha 16E, and got lots of complements on sound improvement. That mouthpiece seemed to defy gravity, being wider, deeper, achieved sound improvements, and yet playing in the upper register got easier and less tiring as well. I tend to find that those old DW cornet pieces need a lot of fighting from me, so maybe I'm just that's just my response from moving away from something which doesn't suit me at all.
What I will add though is with cornet playing, tend to look at a setup which plays really well in the stave. Most repertoire isn't particularly interested in playing in the stratosphere, so it may be useful to eliminate that altogether.
Cornets tend to help to play expressively within the stave, and that's where they really should remain. Listening to Hans Gansch' (he's not German, he's Austrian btw), him being a professional orchestral trumpeter, I can only say, there's a real reason why he chose to play that on a cornet, and not a trumpet.
My point is not about players but about listening and the part that sound equipment and sound engineers play to bring the sound to what we hear.
I used the word significant to mean audible. I can hear the effects of the equalizer used somewhere in the process of producing the OP's video clip. I suspect it was in post production. This is what I hear:
The tone that Mr. Daws produces has a distinct woodwind-like sound to it in the low range. In other words, a very non-brass sound. Also, the sound itself has two distinct parts to it with a hole between them. I've only listened through the clip once, but I can say that I've never heard any other recording of any brass instrument that had this kind of sound. Indeed, I've not heard any wind instrument that had such a void in its frequency profile. How did it get there?
If we listen to early recordings of musicians or singers, we cannot escape the limitations of the equipment used in those days. Those early electronics left out so much of the full sound of the performance, compared to what is produced today, that it affects our enjoyment, as we listen. We have to alter our listening mind to filter out noise and add in substance we know was there when the recording was made. Otherwise, we just stop listening altogether, right?
Today, if we want to really understand what we are hearing, we need to be aware of what is being added or taken away from the original sound. We have to consider the acoustic space, the microphone, the various amplifiers, equalizers, recorders, even cables used to get the performance "on tape." In my experience, the microphone and engineer at the equalizer make or break the sound and the biggest factor is the person running the equalizer.
Have you ever been in a live performance and noticed how good it sounded, then rewatch the same exact performance on a video recording only to be disappointed by how awful it sounds? I have many times and it can happen just the same the other way around. The reason is that the PA system used for the live performance needs very different EQ settings compared to the video or sound recording used to broadcast the performance over the air.
*Note concerning Flip Oakes - If you have ever encountered the Wild Thing trumpet or either WT cornet, you probably have marveled at the enormous bell taper. Why did Flip choose a G bugle bell for his instruments? Because, he wants the largest sound he can get. Not loudest, largest. Over many years of playing (he started at 8 years old), repairing and modifying instruments, Flip gravitated toward large throated bells. The Martin Committee, the Holton ST 301MF and 302MF, etc. All striving to open up the sound. It follows that he left behind bells like the #2 & 3 Benge, Selmer Concept TT and others that, in his hands, produced a scrawny, nasally sound.
Others might not notice what he finds obvious, because most people aren't focused on producing what he wants from a trumpet tone. This is why I left out the name of the cornet artist. It isn't about the player, its about listening and hearing. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 408 Location: Attleboro, MA
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:25 am Post subject:
Brian offers some incredibly interesting personal observations and I greatly appreciate his insight. Over the years I have gravitated toward the deeper, V-shaped cornet mouthpieces. It takes more work but the benefits are huge! _________________ Getzen 800DLX cornet
Flip Oaks 1X mouthpiece
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:20 am Post subject:
Hm, I’m certainly not convinced about those incredible observations and with my musical hearing is nothing wrong. We are not talking about miliionseller records of Marsalis but about a simple live performance of a Salvation player with piano accompaniment. Brian what you hear is not superior sound engineering but sloppy repairs of a not so good recording. What went wrong I don’t know. I am quite sure that Quincy Jones did NOT this ‘post production sound engineering’.
And if your hearing is so sublime as you seem to think the limitations of the old recordings is not at all a problem to judge the sound quality of the players of that era. BTW I am a collector of 78 rpm records so at least I’m experienced in that field.
For me it seems that 90% of your incredible observations consist of quotes or stories of Zig and Flip. Nothing against these guys BTW. And I owned a Selmer TT and so I can tell you that it is an incredible playing professional horn but indeed with a certain sound I didn’t like to much.
And please, if there is a topic about comparing sounds of recorded artist don’t spoil the party with unfounded assumptions, gossip talk from hearsaying about an anonymous (famous) player and other stuff.
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 722 Location: Hereford, UK
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:56 am Post subject:
Dieter, I'll second the suggestion to post some recordings of your playing - it would open up the possibilities for discussion so much. If you're not comfortable putting your playing out there on the forum, I could give you some thoughts if you sent me something in a PM.
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject:
Mike Prestage wrote:
Dieter, I'll second the suggestion to post some recordings of your playing - it would open up the possibilities for discussion so much. If you're not comfortable putting your playing out there on the forum, I could give you some thoughts if you sent me something in a PM.
Mike
I don't have a recording of myself on YouTube, only one on my laptop as a mp4 file. Not sure how I could post that. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:06 pm Post subject:
Just a couple random thoughts:
I see/hear nothing from the first performance to chalk it up more than the acoustics of the room.
It doesn't matter how the sound may or may not have been modified, it is the resultant sound that the OP wants to emulate.
I don't see the relevance of comparing the two cornetists. Apples and oranges. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:50 pm Post subject:
delano wrote:
And ‘probably’ (there we go again) mr. Bonds’ clips are not edited. I don’t think so either but mr. Bond write books and seems professionally involved with teaching so you and I both can’t be sure about that.
(Emphasis added)
Just interjecting about a minor point (in the sense that it's not the main point of the post) in this post - Peter Bond played in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra for years, and you can find plenty of recordings of the orchestra, him playing with their brass concerts, and solo recordings of him playing the Tomasi, Hindemith, and various other pieces on YouTube, and elsewhere. Also, I've had a number of lessons with him in person, so for what its worth here's my input on this:
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