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stuartissimo
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 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:17 am Post subject: Lawnmower parenting in trumpet playing |
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UPDATE: changed the title to ‘Lawnmower parenting’ instead of ‘curling parenting’
For those unfamiliar with the term, ‘curling parenting’ is used to describe parents who try to solve all problems for their child (i.e. brushing the ice in front of the curling stone), thus denying the child valuable life experience gained by making their own mistakes.
To those who teach or consult: do you ever deliberately let your students make mistakes or withold advice or recommendations so they can learn from experiencing things themselves? I’ve noticed that many teachers take a ‘this is how you do it’ approach, and some even actively dissuade seeking out other sources of information or experimenting in general. And given the delicate nature of developing a proper embouchure, I can understand why it’s suboptimal to let a student ‘muck about’ for too long. But for other things (like say, gear selection maybe?), have you ever considered to just ‘let the student do their thing and fail’ to give them some valuable experience on what not to do and why?
A recent billboard advertisement I saw while driving stating “Experience is what you gain right after you needed it” got me thinking on whether this applies to trumpet playing too, and whether instead of trying to prevent new players from say, buying gear they don’t need, or following an online course by a less reputable source, it would be more beneficial to their long term understanding to just let them find out for themselves?
Any thoughts on this?
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Last edited by stuartissimo on Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Irving
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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First thing's first. What is a curling stone?
As far a s teachers go, we aren't talking about learning how to walk or ride a bike. If somebody is interested in learning how to play, then he needs proper guidance. Otherwise why have a teacher? When I started out in 4th grade (10 years old) my teacher was a clarinet player. After a year, I was tonguing with my lips, if you can imagine. A brass player had to tell me what I was doing wrong. Bad habits are easy to get into, and you want to be set up properly and monitored by a good teacher, which is asking a lot, since good teachers don't grow on trees.
So if you are going to have a teacher, then he should teach properly. (easier said than done). Otherwise, why bother with one? If you are lucky enough to find a good teacher, then you will have a great head start.
Last edited by Irving on Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mafields627
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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In the U.S. we call those "lawnmower parents" because they try to mow down all obstacles in front of the child. I teach in a public school setting where students can take band during the school day (it's my understanding this isn't common in Europe). I never let students figure it out on their own in terms of embouchure, posture, playing technique; however, I will frequently let them wrestle with a piece of a music a bit before going through our learning process. There are many things that they will have to do on their own as musicians and they need to learn how to use what they have been taught to figure out "how the music goes."
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | First thing's first. What is a curling stone? |
It’s the big chunks of granite that they chuck across the ice in curling.
| mafields627 wrote: | | In the U.S. we call those "lawnmower parents" because they try to mow down all obstacles in front of the child. |
Thanks, I’ve updated the title to clarify.
I agree that the technical aspects of trumpet teaching aren’t suitable for an unguided approach. However, often the rigidness of instructions isn’t limited to those areas. For example, students are often told what trumpet to buy, which mouthpiece to use, what warmup exercises to play and how long, to include or exclude mouthpiece buzzing, etc. Plenty of room to allow a little leeway for (guided?) experimentation.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
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1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Bethmike
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In the U.S. we call those "lawnmower parents" |
Maybe down south, up north we call them "snowplow parents". They try to clear the path, so their precious little snowflakes don't have to experience real life.
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delano
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:27 am Post subject: |
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What's exactly the subject of this thread? Real lawnmowers parents will of course forbid their kids to play the trumpet. Your virtual problem wil not appear in the real world.
And the question 'let the student do their thing and wait' is IMO a matter of method and not of yes or no lawnmowing. |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | What's exactly the subject of this thread? |
| Quote: | | the question 'let the student do their thing and wait' is IMO a matter of method |
Basically that. I used the term ‘curling parenting’ because it’s common a pedagogic concept (though apparently it’s called different things in different parts of the world). I’m curious whether there are trumpet teachers or teaching methods that are deliberately less directive in their approach, and in which ways they apply the ‘trial and error’ in their daily teachings (if at all).
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Last edited by stuartissimo on Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:51 am Post subject: withholding info / allowing experimentation |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | ... deliberately let your students make mistakes or withold advice or recommendations so they can learn from experiencing things themselves? ... |
---------------------------------------------
The important consideration is 'the student learning'.
If a sub-optimal 'teaching method' is used, that is the fault of the teacher.
Of course sub-optimal 'learning' can be due to the student.
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tptptp
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Bethmike wrote: | | Quote: | | In the U.S. we call those "lawnmower parents" |
Maybe down south, up north we call them "snowplow parents". They try to clear the path, so their precious little snowflakes don't have to experience real life. |
Funny that I've not heard of either term.. Around here, they're called helicopter parents, because they're always hovering around their kids so they can interfere when they see fit.
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krax
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: |
Basically that. I used the term ‘curling parenting’ because it’s common a pedagogic concept (though apparently it’s called different things in different parts of the world). |
Bent Hougaard, Danish pshychologist, was the one who invented that term, as late as 2000 I think, at least that's when he published the book about it that caused so much debate.
"Helicopter parent" is a bit older, according to wikipedia, but not as scientifically founded:
"The term "helicopter parent" has been in use since the late 1980s.[4] It subsequently gained wide currency when American academic administrators began using it in the early 2000s as the oldest millennials began reaching college age."
Now to your question, I remember that my violin teacher told me when I was young that yes, it was ok to hold the bow differently, and I could do it and still play well and that many folk musicians had their own way of holding both the violin and the bow, but I would never be fast enough to play classical solo concerts well if I did. He left it to me to try and eventually learn from my decision and then to change again if I wanted to be serious about the classical stuff.
(it didn't matter, my hands grew out of the violin so those classical concerts were not for me anyway so I played the viola instead and later on the trumpet). |
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Irving
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Where were the Helicopter Parents when I was growing up? In our High School orchestra the trumpet section used to have a lot of fun laughing and having a good time during rehearsals. Unfortunately, the director thought that I was laughing at him. So he used to call my mother and complain about my attitude. This happened on various occasions. It sounds like today, the parents would swoop down and make short work of any teacher that complained about their child. Not back then. I was judged, declared guilty, and didn't even get a trial. (I never got punished though, so my mother must have known that it was all BS but she went through the motions). Anybody with authority was believed and children had no right to anger adults. Looking back, I was learning how to deal with conductors. |
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thecoast
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Lawnmower parenting in trumpet playing |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | UPDATE: changed the title to ‘Lawnmower parenting’ instead of ‘curling parenting’…
…have you ever considered to just ‘let the student do their thing and fail’ to give them some valuable experience on what not to do and why?
A recent billboard advertisement I saw while driving stating “Experience is what you gain right after you needed it” got me thinking on whether this applies to trumpet playing too, and whether instead of trying to prevent new players from say, buying gear they don’t need, or following an online course by a less reputable source, it would be more beneficial to their long term understanding to just let them find out for themselves?
Any thoughts on this? |
When I was studying education, I learned that the younger a student is or the less the knowledge a person has, the more directive a teacher has to be. And that’s because there’s less experience, less points of reference from which to create learning or innovate. Or to make meaningful mistakes. The older a student is or the more experienced (or both), the more a mistake is likely to be a learning opportunity. Opportunity I say.
And a good teacher is one with the experience, heart, and wisdom to discern where a student is developmentally and usually has good judgment to know when to be either more directive or more motivational.
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delano
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Lawnmower parenting in trumpet playing |
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| thecoast wrote: |
When I was studying education, I learned that the younger a student is or the less the knowledge a person has, the more directive a teacher has to be. And that’s because there’s less experience, less points of reference from which to create learning or innovate. Or to make meaningful mistakes. The older a student is or the more experienced (or both), the more a mistake is likely to be a learning opportunity. Opportunity I say.
And a good teacher is one with the experience, heart, and wisdom to discern where a student is developmentally and usually has good judgment to know when to be either more directive or more motivational. |
Very good! |
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mafields627
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | It sounds like today, the parents would swoop down and make short work of any teacher that complained about their child. |
It's more like parents refuse to believe the teacher and the student can make up any story they want. The parents then bypass the teacher completely - going straight to the principal, school board, or superintendent - to complain. The administrator, who only cares about their job, or the school board, who only cares about being re-elected, pacifies the parent to the detriment of the teacher's ability to actually teach. The student then learns that all you have to do is complain to get your way. It's made teaching damn near impossible.
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tptptp
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Lawnmower parenting in trumpet playing |
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| thecoast wrote: |
When I was studying education, I learned that the younger a student is or the less the knowledge a person has, the more directive a teacher has to be. And that’s because there’s less experience, less points of reference from which to create learning or innovate. |
So true! With music, the "knowledge" part is really important. The more a musician listens to himself, and especially to great players, the better reference he has for the need for change.
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