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Physical Characteristics and Type



 
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject: Physical Characteristics and Type Reply with quote

Sorry if this question has been covered a million times, or isn't consistent with the goals of this dedicated forum, but there's something that I'm wondering about, and am hoping more knowledgeable people can share their thoughts about:

What are the influences of different physical characteristics on playing type? For instance, why do IIIAs do better with forward jaws when IIIBs don't need this? Is this driven by the shape/position of one's teeth, or lips, or something else entirely? Presumably everything matters, but there must be some general underlying features that make one set of embouchure setup instructions work for one category of players and not another.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting question, and I am interested in answers from people familiar with the details.

My concern is that someone with 'specific physical characteristics' might be be convinced that they ought to use a particular Reinhardt type. As opposed to determining what type is associated with the playing style that gives them best results, and then using Reinhardt to further enhance their playing.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no absolutes in correlation between physical characteristics and embouchure type.
OFTEN someone with a pretty receded jaw will be IIIB, but not always.
OFTEN someone with closer to more even alignment will be IIIA, but not always.
OFTEN someone with a protruded jaw (underbite) will be a IV (upstream), but not always.

The only real determining factor is what works, by testing.

MANY players go their whole carrer playing less efficiently than they could because they don't know about it and never discover their actual type. It's possible to get really good at playing the wrong way for your face, and then perpetuate those wrong ideas... like much of the stuff I read here on TH every day.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was my dissertation topic. When I crunched the numbers there was only one physical feature that had a statistically significant correlation to embouchure type and I suspect that this was just statistical noise that would disappear with more test subjects. Doug had mentioned that he thought this would be the results ahead of time.

I also recall my surprise at not finding any correlations of significance because I had convinced myself that I was seeing them. Especially when you're using more subjective measurements it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking you're on the right track when you're only getting better at playing wrong.

Dave
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Sheetz told me once that you could tell if a player was a type IV by their smile. He said, “If you can see their gums, they’re probably a IV.” I don’t know physically what this proves, though. Do upstreamers have longer gum length for their teeth than downstreamers? There are so many physical factors to take into consideration, it’s really tough to see where the consistencies are.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dave Sheetz told me once that you could tell if a player was a type IV by their smile. He said, “If you can see their gums, they’re probably a IV.”


That was one of the physical characteristics I specifically looked at in my dissertation. Often this is true, but not always. This was not a statistically significant correlation in my research.

Here's an upstream trombonist.



And here is his "smile" (I instructed everyone to "give me your biggest grin" for the photos).



Quote:
Do upstreamers have longer gum length for their teeth than downstreamers? There are so many physical factors to take into consideration, it’s really tough to see where the consistencies are.


I do think that the relationship of the lips to the teeth and gums is a factor. It may be true that upstream players have a shorter upper lip in relation to their upper teeth and gums, but as you note, there are many factors that come into play. Seeing the gums while the musician is smiling may give you a clue which type would work best, but you have to check it while the student is actually playing the horn.

Dave
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that information, Dave. I wanted to be careful and say it wasn’t a hard and fast rule, which I had a feeling it wasn’t. It is indeed often true, I think, but it’s good to have a counterexample in writing.

I started to wonder who the trumpet examples would be. Decided to look at Doc Severinsen and he may fit the bill. I don’t see his gums in this picture.


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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be a common feature to see the upper gums of upstream players when they smile, but of course that's not always the case (as my example above). I also went through and found some examples of downstream players with that same characteristic.



Looking at this smile, would you figure this player to be upstream?



Personally, I would use this feature as a clue to point me in the right direction, but I wouldn't assume that the player should be upstream without checking it carefully.

Dave
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chase1973
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be confusing what type somebody is, Dave Sheetz also told me about smiling & seeing gums that that individual would more than likely (not always) be an upstream type.
You also can't go by horn angle alone. Some downnstream types when they play, though rare, their chin goes into their chest and the bell of horn points to the sky, and you'd think "he's an upstream type!" Not always. It all depends on what part of the lip protrudes most into the cup.
Sometimes it's obvious what type a player is (Chris Botti is so obvious a IIIA b/c his MPC placement is directly under his nose it's so high on the top lip), however, Jon Faddis has a fairly high MPC placement and some my think he's a IIIA but, Doug typed him as a IV 100% certain.
I do know "Doc" would mis-type players every so often...for example, he mis-typed Bill Chase as a IIIA and it's painfully obvious Chase was a meat hookin' IIIB (horn angle, sound, physical exertion, besides Chris Labarbera & Dave Sheetz confirmed that I'm correct)
It's not an exact science, but it's close.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
It may be a common feature to see the upper gums of upstream players when they smile, but of course that's not always the case (as my example above). I also went through and found some examples of downstream players with that same characteristic.



Looking at this smile, would you figure this player to be upstream?



Personally, I would use this feature as a clue to point me in the right direction, but I wouldn't assume that the player should be upstream without checking it carefully.

Dave


Another fine counterexample.

Just goes to show you very, very little is for sure when it comes to individual embouchure characteristics. One of the few across-the-board truths is, if you play with more lower lip in the mouthpiece, the air goes up. If you play with more upper lip, the air goes down. But I guess that’s just basic physics.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:07 am    Post subject: up / down air Reply with quote

JoshMizruchi wrote:
... One of the few across-the-board truths is, if you play with more lower lip in the mouthpiece, the air goes up. If you play with more upper lip, the air goes down. But I guess that’s just basic physics.

-----------------------------
Are there 2 different definitions of upstream and downstream players?
Perhaps Reinhardt uses 1 definition type, and other methods use something else.

It seems that some people use the location of the aperture within the rim ID to identify where the air passes into the mouthpiece.
- e.g. Aperture LOW (more upper lip) associated with 'down'.

I've seen other sources that are concerned with the 'target location' within the mouthpiece cup as the defining characteristic - regardless of the physical location of the aperture within the rim ID.
- e.g. 'aiming' towards the top of the cup associated with 'up'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the encyclopedia, I believe Doc says specifically that it is the ratio to lower vs. upper lip in the mouthpiece. I guess where the aperture is located in the mouthpiece would probably be directly affected by the ratio of upper to lower lip anyway.

Regarding the direction of the air in the mouthpiece, the ratio of upper vs. lower lip actually determines that. If there’s more lower lip in the mouthpiece, the air goes up. If more upper lip, the air goes down, regardless of pivot direction. This is one of the few things in trumpet playing that seems to be true for everyone.

Upstream and downstream refer to the direction of the airstream, which is dictated by the amount of lower lip vs. upper lip in the mouthpiece and it’s funny how easy it is to forget that, because we use these terms so much it’s easy to forget about its true meaning.

Josh
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Airstream direction can also be influenced by lip texture top vs bottom. One lip will predominate and cause the air to go either up or down. I have seen chops that appear to be equal and the airstream goes straight, but they have always been players with problems.
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