Need advice - teaching an 8 y/o

[ctownj30]

I'm a long time, active player but have never taught anyone. I was asked to give lessons to my godson so trying to give it my all.

We are 6 lessons in and he's having a lot of trouble getting free air movement and any kind of open tone - can't really play above an F. I'll keep this open ended and won't get into the things I've tried so far but the problems I've observed are that:

-he wants to put too much lip in the mouthpiece
-his lower jaw may be clamped shut
-he wants to put the mouthpiece way up on his lips

Basically seems like a combination of things that result in inability to get free air through and no matter what I tell him or demonstrate we cannot seem to get past it.

Here's some videos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/yBRA6YwtkFEQvGi4A

You can really see how hard it is for him to just get the note out.

What would you tell this kid? How would you demonstrate what he should change?

Any resources would also be helpful. I don't want to mess this up!

-djm

[onlyson]

Tell his parents he should wait until he is 10. Or maybe 9 if he is big and mature for his age. Seriously. A bad experience may make him so frustrated he'll just quit anyways. This way he has something to look forward to.

I had a student who was 10 but was very small for his age. He was also emotionally young too if you know what I mean. The poor kid got so frustrated he cried at nearly every lesson. We soldiered on though and I give the kid credit for sticking with it. It took almost two months for him to be able to produce anything resembling a solid note. So just about that time his mother told me they were moving. Gotta love it.
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[Theshinytrumpet]

Here are a couple of things worth trying:

1. Blowing air into the mouthpiece with the mouthpiece a few inches in front of his face. It should be a full stream like you're trying to blow out a line of candles. Try doing it for four counts (whatever speed you want), and then have him immediately place the instrument on his face and do the same thing. Worst case scenario, he puts a lot of air through the instrument and learns what that feels like; Best case scenario, he plays an easy C or G.

2. Don't rush it. Do your best to encourage him to have fun and be silly. I have a friend who bought a cornet for his nephew, who is five years old. This kid practices by just blowing and putting valves down, and he's started to develop a solid tone and decent embouchure. He doesn't care about anything other than the fact that he is having fun.

3. Some gear-related ideas would be to start on a more beginner-friendly mouthpiece, preferably on a cornet. I have had much better success with beginners on the cornet than with the trumpet.
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[Doug Elliott]

I would say he has a good start already. He's not too young at all.
If you're interested and our schedules work, I can get him going with 5 or 10 minutes on Skype. PM me.

[Jeff_Purtle]

I watched your two videos. He's off to a good start. I would make sure he gets it off his lip between each attempt at what you're having him do. Don't make him overthink things. Just say tongue like this and get him to think T and produce what you are doing. Mention tongue level and the feel like whistling and just adjust whatever notes he can change with the same fingering so he can feel that sensation. I NEVER tell students to buzz because it usually gives the wrong sensation and concept.

Don't worry about starting him young. He's not that young. The challenge will be to simplify things to accomplish fundamentals but not overwhelm or discourage with too much. With little kids I usually handwrite things like a melody in their range with the appropriate scale to go with it and then get them to tongue and slur so they are away and in control of that. Clapping and counting from the beginning makes it so they can read better and that become automatic. Once a younger student gets far enough along I usually adapt Claude Gordon's Physical Approach book to whatever they can do and just take our time going through it and hand write simply flexibility studies so that becomes a normal thing for them to do to feel that coordination of tongue level and wind power.

Below are two examples of my daughter, now 17, when she was at 22 months old on French horn and about 5 on trumpet. We did little informal "lessons" because she heard so many people taking with me she wanted to be a student too. I tried to make it simple and fun but focused on important items. I'm actually the one that introduced her to videos about ballet and that was obviously her passion from a very young age. What she gained from music has allowed her to be a better dancer than others because I can see her sense of time and awareness of everything lining up. We also made her do piano until maybe 8th grade and she took a couple years of clarinet with my ex wife, who is a great woodwinds teacher. Ballet won out though and we are both excited or her to pursue that with everything she's got.

I hope these two videos are fun. I laugh at them both, especially the second one where she quickly gets a little distracted.


Link



Link

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[Billy B]

I agree with Jeff. Simplify what you’re doing and just focus on sound. To a young artist stick figures are the first step.
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[Doug Elliott]

I was 8 when I started on trombone.

[chase1973]

Lots of good solid advice! YES! Definitely keep things basic and simple. I might even have him on a Cornet until about 10 as the weight of a regular Bb Trumpet is often a heavy struggle for kids under a certain age or body build. One factor is to make sure, even from the embryonic stages, have them form the habit of breathing through the mouth corners and not the mouth center and always place, inhale, play never inhale, place, play.

Once things start to get moving after a while-the Harold Mitchell book 1 is also great to work out of as well...

[Crazy Finn]

Many of my beginner band students in 4th grade were 9 when they started band.

Trumpet - or frankly any instrument - can be a big much to handle, initially, but it they put in effort and time and are provided good instruction, progress will be made.
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[kalijah]

No, he is not off to a good start. Sorry. He is forming habits NOW that will plague his playing. He is trying to BUZZ into the instrument as if he would buzz lips without it.

Stop requiring musically timed tones until he corrects the tonal and note commencement approach. Have him inhale gently and naturally through the nose for his first tones, and the inhalation need not be the LAST beat before a timed attack. Dispense with the metronome and allow "free" timing until his attack is corrected. Do not attempt tongued "timed" scales until he has some control of attacks on a constant pitch first. And in that case allow him to choose the tempo at first.

His lip posture is much too "rolled-out". Blow air FIRST through the gently "closed" lips gently and naturally after a nose inhalation. The correct embouchure posture should be established first.

[JayKosta]

I didn't look at the videos earlier because I don't have knowledge or experience with players that young ...

But after watching, I agree with Kalijah about there being a problem with basic embouchure and playing technique. From facial expressions, it looks like there's an attempt to 'buzz into' the mouthpiece - instead of forming a proper embouchure and 'blowing thru the lips'.

see BILLY B 's video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTb2gEaTU4

I'd tell the student to not attempt to 'buzz' the note - just form a decent embouchure (basic position and lip tension / posture) and blow thru the lips and into the mouthpiece - the trumpet (or leadpipe) itself will do the rest.
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[Doug Elliott]

Everybody has an opinion.

[Robert P]

One observation - in both videos he's making a sort of smiley face when first addressing the mouthpiece. Are you telling him to do that or is he just doing that on his own?

If so, I wouldn't - notice that when he gets a sound his mouth isn't configured anything like that.

He's getting a sound consistently which puts him ahead of some. His placement might be a little high but he's still learning which end is up. I find I can play readily on the staff with a much higher placement than I use normally, I don't think it's crucial at this point, if he doesn't bring it down naturally on his own, if it really becomes a stumbling block he can experiment when he's got more of a handle on and awareness of chops issues.

I'd encourage *you* to try and emulate the kind of sound he's getting - I think you'll find you have to use a flabby setup and have your teeth closed too far, you want to move him away from that.

To play with a better sound he has to do what anyone else has to do to make a better sound. I'd encourage him to start tonguing say four easy quarter notes on C, same on D, and higher if he can manage it which should get him to open his teeth and oral cavity a tad and necessitate him maintaining that more open setting. Yes harp on bigger breath - I'd also encourage him to raise the horn up a bit and err on the side of playing with more volume rather than less to get lots of air moving.

To attack that first note as I tense the lips a tad I find the spot with the mp rim where it feels like it's in a pocket particularly on the top lip, open the teeth a bit, relax the chops, take a breath, move the musculature of the embouchure in on the relaxed area under the rim and attack. I submit this is pretty much what everyone does if they really pay attention and what he's going to have to do to create a solid sound. Of course there are additional subtle adjustments I make but a kid who's been playing less than two months isn't going to be attuned to that, but I think he could incorporate what I've outlined above.

You didn't mention it but I think I should bring up that I personally don't think about "corners" at all and wouldn't encourage someone else to. IMO telling him anything like "keep your corners firm" is misguided and will only be counterproductive.
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[Billy B]

[gwood66]

Here is how Adam Rapa does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTFeWJFvOn4
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[dershem]

One of my students (I'm the brass coach at a junior high) has serious embouchure problems and I have filmed him on my phone and showed it to him. Occasionally he gets the difference, but falls back into bad habits. Just not pressing him too hard and showing the difference can help.
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