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Doug Elliott
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Something that works sometimes, but is inconsistent and not repeatable, is probably not correct even when it does work.
The video you sent me all looks very "standard III" to me, but I wouldn't assume it's correct for you... It's just too inconsistent. Not the first time I've seen that situation.
I won't have time to see you until Sunday. We can work through it then. |
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donovan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | | The video you sent me all looks very "standard III" to me, but I wouldn't assume it's correct for you. |
Did you watch the long video (17min)? Did you watch the other clips after the first one? TO ME in the first clip he looks like a III or IIIB, but in the following clips he looks like a IVA. But I'm no expert, and defer to your knowledge and experience.
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| I'm away this week and watching on my phone so it's pretty small. |
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LyonLover
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting stuff... I do sometimes notice improvement when I bring down the placement. And I airball when the bottom lip is collapsed.
But that's interesting about the III standard, as I mentioned in the video and I posted here in August, I thought the same thing for a while. But yeah, there is a pretty significant switch that occurred in August after I lost the audition and changed a lot. My playing improved a lot then, but I still have occasional problems of airballing and inconsistency, tho not as much as before. Am I type switching back to my old type when these issues happen perhaps? Most of the severe issues returned in the past week or 2.
Yesterday when I started playing with a lower placement, immediate range and no airballs... all the way up to G above high C. Today.... a G above the staff is a struggle to speak and i'm using the same placement. If I place higher, there is nothing. No range above middle C and a bad tone. I will the past week or so is the worst point of my playing sine before the Audition when I was having struggles.
Let me make another (short) video of how i'm playing right now with a closer up view of embouchure. I just changed the placement again... and I can play high C nicely now...But damn did it peel paint off my wall! As doug said tho.. inconsistency means something isn't right, I think I'm just gonna need to work with him or Dave and I'm more than happy to pay up to make this right.
Last edited by LyonLover on Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LyonLover wrote: | | ... And I airball when the bottom lip is collapsed. |
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I don't understand what 'bottom lip is collapsed' means - maybe a video.
Does is have anything to do with a feeling of blowing the bottom lip into the mouthpiece - not being able to keep it in position.
Are you trying to have a large amount of bottom lip that is not supported by your teeth in or against the rim?
Anyone have a good description of how the bottom lip / teeth / rim interface should be constructed?
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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LyonLover
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'll add a video later when I get home but here's a few I guess... "theories" that i've come up with based on the info i've gotten
- I played as a standard III or IIIB before the audition. The videos of my screaming above high C are IVA, and the top lip doesn't protrude so much over the bottom lip in those videos, even though the bottom lip is flushed against my bottom teeth. (And keep in mind... I was screaming pretty consistently, there's a video of my wind ensemble that includes us warming up before the performance.. and I played a massive arpeggio to high E that just soared above everyone else there..those videos were not one offs. I also played a double G in another concert, but it wasn't recorded) My latest struggles are from type switching between IVA and III, and the airballs happen when the top lip starts protruding and bottom lip starts collapsing/rolling in (you can see this in videos). The top lip protrudes above a collapsed bottom lip, making the top lip have nothing to vibrate against. By collapsed bottom lip, I mean the bottom lip rolls in towards the inner mouth.
- I just play as a III, always have, still do. IVA never really entered the equation because my bottom lip just seems to be below my top.. always rolled in a little. I've heard IIIs tend to have a real powerful sound when they're playing at their best in the upper middle to top of their range. I def have that.
- I play as a low placement IIIB, and the issues are from type switching to IVA in the lower register when i've got that huge sound in the lower register that ive had lately.
We shall see. I'll do anything to solve this. Personally I think the top one makes the most sense but I will defer to Dave and Doug. |
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LyonLover
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| So sometimes with the lower placement it really works... really nice sound all the way up to G over high C. But the next time i go to play just a minute later if something is off by .001 millimeters then i'll be toast, not even high C can come out. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | Quote: | | I see he was an advocate of free-buzzing, based on criteria that I find to be absurd. |
Out of curiosity, what do you find absurd about it? |
I've gotten on this soapbox numerous times in here but free-buzzing has no resemblance to what you do when actually playing. The area of buzzing tissue isn't the same, the shape of the buzzing tissue isn't the same, the way the muscles are engaged isn't the same, the physics are different.
Envision someone playing say a top of staff G, or any note. Now pretend the mouthpiece becomes completely invisible and you see the formation of the lips as they are when playing - the lips are trapped between the mp and the teeth which impacts the way the buzz happens, there's a rim-shaped impression in the lip, the area of tissue that's buzzing is restricted to the tissue inside the rim that's part of a circular area that's a bit pooched out from the area under the rim. *That's* what you're playing with. Everything else happens to serve that circular reed. The way the muscles bear in on the mouthpiece and transfer tension to the buzzing tissue under the rim, the alignment and spacing of the teeth, where and how the air is focused, the physics that are going on that impact the buzz is contingent on the flesh reed formed as per above with the mouthpiece and horn in place. Without the horn and mouthpiece in place it completely alters the parameters of what happens when you buzz. It just isn't the same activity.
It seems odd that he apparently didn't grasp this as much as he focused on what the embouchure does when the mouthpiece is actually in place.
From Chapter Five:
"55. What is the value of buzzing the embouchure as prescribed by the PIVOT SYSTEM?
Buzzing the embouchure formation by blowing very lightly through an embouchure formed with "buzzing firmness" (without the mouthpiece or instrument) is invaluable for developing and maintaining a firm embouchure, firm mouthcorners, and a firm flat chin. A few minutes of correct buzzing is often worth more than many hours of ordinary exercise playing, in a muscular sense. (???) Buzzing in the proper manner strenthens the entire embouchure formation and makes the vibrating points very supple and responsive; (Did he measure them with some kind of elasticity meter under playing conditions?) thus flexibility, endurance, attack, etc., are tremendously enhanced."
I assert he just made this stuff up. I could buzz great, it did none of what he claims.
"Buzz so lightly that the air stream will be emitted only from one spot on the embouchure formation"
What exactly is the measurement of a "spot"? He also says to buzz with the lower lip pulled under the upper lip regardless of what type you are when playing - i.e. removing it even farther from the reality of how one actually plays.
If you play a given note - snatch the horn away while changing nothing. *That's* where the surrounding musculature of your embouchure is when working against the mouthpiece and creating a note. I know for me it in no way resembles the configuration I have to use for free-buzzing, not even close. You *can't* buzz the actual embouchure formation as Reinhardt suggests without the mp in place for reasons I've outlined - you have to have the mp to have an actual embouchure formation.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Not a fan of his notion of striving to match your inhalation to the exact amount you're going to use. |
That may be a mischaracterization of what he meant by "timed breathing." This doesn't mean that at the end of your phrase you're mostly out of air, the concept is to return to a point of neutrality in your breathing. You could keep blowing, if you had to, but you're at a point of diminished returns in how hard you have to work to continue. Nor do you want to have a lot of air left in your lungs at the end of the phrase. |
I'm basing it on what he said - this sounds pretty unambiguous:
From Chapter Three Breathing Discussion:
P. 11 point 7. "Strive to inhale the exact amount of air to be utilized during the playing-no more, no less! This timed breathing principle prevents the player from overbreathing and underbreathing."
I see he repeats this under another section "What is meant by the term "timed breathing"?"
He expounds on the evils of "overbreathing" with a laundry list of supposed ill-effects - I'm surprised he doesn't include dandruff and bad breath.
There's also the consideration that you need air to carry on life functions, when playing you're interrupting the normal breathing rhythm.
| Quote: | | I never studied directly with Reinhardt. I learned about his approach first through my teacher, Doug Elliott (who has posted in this topic), and then later through his writings. I had read the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System prior to taking my first lesson with Doug, but I didn't really grasp what was so valuable until after Doug explained it to me using different terms. There's a lot of very good information in the Encyclopedia, but I don't think it's a very good introduction. The format is too disjointed, for one. It's too easy to misunderstand things in there. |
I would agree that his writing style leaves much to be desired - so you're saying this compendium of his thoughts isn't a good way to glean his thoughts?
When it's said that people teach certain points differently than Reinhardt taught them - i.e. every time you find yourself saying "Well, what he *really* meant is..." it seems what they're actually doing is correcting what they see as flaws in his methodology. At what point does it stop being Reinhardt's method and become someone else's?
Getting back to my original input in this thread, whatever the nuances of someone's physical tools, everyone is still blowing through lips pinned against their teeth. There's still an optimal orientation of the lips to each other and a particular way to use the muscles to transfer the neccessary tension to the buzzing tissue. What I originally suggested to LyonLover was to find the mechanics that give him the best sound which needs to happen regardless of what "type" someone is.
It might provide insight to clarify that for myself a huge problem I had for a very long time was the mp never felt like it fit on my lips - never felt like it was in a notch or pocket. I never had a secure, anchored feeling. After horsing around with the mp I would get it to sort of feel a compromise of "sort of okay" but moving around on the horn much made it feel off pretty readily. Pretty much anything over the staff was a question mark - a particularly maddening phenomenon was when I tried to play a higher note the mp felt like it was slipping off the top lip.
I couldn't play chromatically from low F# or G up to high C. I would have to re-set at some point. I worked on that specific task to exhaustion - couldn't do it. I could work up to a high C but it never felt solid, secure. If I put the horn down for a few minutes I had to re-invent the wheel again. Couldn't just pick it up and *pow* - high C.
A friend of mine who was in the category of a "natural" - was first chair in band, played lead in the dance band we both played in who had thin lips, straight teeth had no such problems. He could see me struggling but it was foreign to him. He was no double C player but he could reliably get a nice high D at the end of In The Mood no matter when it was pulled out. Physically I'm much bigger and stronger than him but at the end of a four hour dance gig he had plenty left in the tank, playing 2nd and occasional lead my chops felt beat up at the end of the night - and this wasn't playing the Kenton or Herman book, we were playing primarily society band stock arrangements - In The Mood and String Of Pearls were the more hip charts we played.
If I suck in my lips to make the vermillion mostly disappear and simulate thin lips like his it's a whole different story - the mp readily finds a nice pocket. I can't play like that because of the unnatural, overly dense way the tissue is squeezed but it gives insight as to what people like my friend experience. I had to learn to find a pocket with the lips I have and have the balance of tension and pressure be such that the mp felt anchored, and I could make the necessary adjustments without that slipping off feeling.
I'm still no Doc Severinsen but I'm in a far different place than I once was. Once upon a time I would have been deliriously happy just to be able to bang out a loud high C with it feeling comfortable and anchored as I can now.
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Last edited by Robert P on Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for taking the time to clarify your thoughts, Robert, including posting quotes.
Regarding lip buzzing and timed breathing, I think there may some nuance that you're missing. The Encyclopedia often defines terms or concepts pages earlier and doesn't put everything into a good context. Maybe it's because I've been taught those things from a former Reinhardt student and it's not something that was really addressed in the Encyclopedia. I'm too lazy right now to look around and see if I can find quotes that would help you understand both buzzing and timed breathing better.
Regardless, let's just say for the sake of argument that those things are not helpful for you. The relevance in this particular thread had to do with embouchure types, which you advised to not worry about. I don't think we can refute the various embouchure types (although we can debate the best way to present them). Has your reread of the Encyclopedia has given you any additional insights into LyonLover's questions? Do you still question the value of understanding that different brass musicians play correctly in different ways?
I do plan on hosting a Zoom hangout to discuss this stuff sometime the first week of April. My web site is still down (supposedly will be back up within a couple of hours), but you'll be able to find info about it there eventually, if you're interested.
Dave
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I had already read through the Encyclopedia at least a couple of times before I had my first lesson with Reinhardt. The way he presented things in lessons (my lessons, anyway) was somewhat different from the way he wrote. I studied with him over a 10 year period, and his teaching evolved over that time. Same basic ideas but presented differently.
And the way I present things is quite a bit different still. |
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donovan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:25 am Post subject: |
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I'll offer some responses to this, but primarily in the interest of those who might be reading this thread who are wanting to learn.
| Robert P wrote: | | ...free-buzzing has no resemblance to what you do when actually playing. The area of buzzing tissue isn't the same, the shape of the buzzing tissue isn't the same, the way the muscles are engaged isn't the same, the physics are different. |
This is somewhat right. If you are a type IIIB, the lip buzzing/free-buzzing is similar. If you are a Type IV, like me, it's not a similar embouchure at all. However, the benefits are exactly what Reinhardt mentions: strength building, while maintaining a vibrating surface.
Think of a professional athlete - how much time do they spend working out with weights or doing cardio, and solely playing their actual sport? Why spend so much time developing muscle and fitness? Can't they build muscle just by playing their sport? In most cases, possibly, but we know that working out with weights quickly builds muscle and thus is a faster, more efficient way to do it. Reinhardt is saying that in a few minutes of lip buzzing you will get the equivalent workout of an hour of playing, more or less. That's why it benefits all players, even those who don't play like they buzz.
| Quote: | "Buzz so lightly that the air stream will be emitted only from one spot on the embouchure formation"
What exactly is the measurement of a "spot"? |
This means that the goal is to have a focused buzz that feels like it's happening at a single point - maybe 2-3mm wide?, not not just the entire lips buzzing.
| Quote: | | When it's said that people teach certain points differently than Reinhardt taught them - i.e. every time you find yourself saying "Well, what he *really* meant is..." it seems what they're actually doing is correcting what they see as flaws in his methodology. At what point does it stop being Reinhardt's method and become someone else's?
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No, I think they are instead trying to phrase his ideas in a different manner so that others can grasp the concept. Robert - you are intentionally being obtuse here. It is very common for others to paraphrase or rephrase an idea written for the purpose of sharing or to provide further/enhanced understanding of a concept.
| Quote: | | There's still an optimal orientation of the lips to each other and a particular way to use the muscles to transfer the neccessary tension to the buzzing tissue. |
You are really close to getting it. This is exactly what Reinhardt is about. Finding the particular way, for each person, to maximize their orientation and adjustment of their lips as they play, based on their physiology, and the known embouchure types that Reinhardt identified.
| Quote: | | I had to learn to find a pocket with the lips I have and have the balance of tension and pressure be such that the mp felt anchored, and I could make the necessary adjustments without that slipping off feeling. |
I know exactly how you feel. A lesson with a Reinhardt teacher could have helped you figure this out quickly and efficiently. If I were you, I would totally take Mike Sailors up on his offer for a free lesson. What do you have to lose?
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Last edited by donovan on Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:10 am Post subject: |
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It's probably very important to use the Reinhardt suggestions about embouchure that are appropriate for your physiology and mouthpiece placement requirements -
i.e. not necessarily the type that you 'want' or 'think you should use', but 'what you actually have'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| donovan wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | ...free-buzzing has no resemblance to what you do when actually playing. The area of buzzing tissue isn't the same, the shape of the buzzing tissue isn't the same, the way the muscles are engaged isn't the same, the physics are different. |
This is somewhat right. If you are a type IIIB, the lip buzzing/free-buzzing is similar. If you are a Type IV, like me, it's not a similar embouchure at all. However, the benefits are exactly what Reinhardt mentions: strength building, while maintaining a vibrating surface. |
It's not "somewhat" right - I don't care what "type" someone is, when the mp and horn are in play everything changes compared to free-buzzing as I outlined above.
| Quote: | | Think of a professional athlete - how much time do they spend working out with weights or doing cardio, and solely playing their actual sport? Why spend so much time developing muscle and fitness? Can't they build muscle just by playing their sport? In most cases, possibly, but we know that working out with weights quickly builds muscle and thus is a faster, more efficient way to do it. Reinhardt is saying that in a few minutes of lip buzzing you will get the equivalent workout of an hour of playing, more or less. That's why it benefits all players, even those who don't play like they buzz. |
I already know there's no point in going into why this is a false analogy.
As I said I'll make a point of reading through the book, however I wonder why Charles Colin publishing takes money for a (really corners-cut badly produced cheapest possible binding and they couldn't be bothered to ensure all the type fell within the borders) book that's famous in brass circles that I'm being told supposedly doesn't actually tell you much about the topic it's supposed to be about. "Oh no - you can't judge what Reinhardt had to say based on Reinhardt's own words in print."
Okee doke.
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Where's Rich when you need him?
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding buzzing and timed breathing again, there are corollaries with other brass pedagogues who have advised similar things (e.g., Emory Remington's "conversational breath" and all the other methods utilizing lip buzzing). We can certainly discuss different thoughts on these things, but those are not unique to Reinhardt.
Regardless, those ideas form only a small part of the overall picture that some of us are advocating for in this thread. One of the areas that was unique to Reinhardt's teaching, at the time, was his acknowledgment of different embouchure patterns that are different for different players, according to the musician's anatomy. This is, or rather should be, undisputed. We can also discuss our thoughts on when a student should learn about this, but I feel this thread has offered some ideas on why it shouldn't be ignored.
| Quote: | | As I said I'll make a point of reading through the book, however I wonder why Charles Colin publishing takes money for a (really corners-cut badly produced cheapest possible binding and they couldn't be bothered to ensure all the type fell within the borders) book that's famous in brass circles that I'm being told supposedly doesn't actually tell you much about the topic it's supposed to be about. "Oh no - you can't judge what Reinhardt had to say based on Reinhardt's own words in print." |
The first gripe above is certainly true. I have nothing to do with the publication. But the book is the words, not the paper it's printed on.
As far as judging Reinhardt on his writing, that's your prerogative. What I suggested is that if you want to understand the ideas he presented that the Encyclopedia isn't a good introduction, in part to the disjointed nature of the information. If you have serious intentions about learning about Reinhardt's pedagogy you might need to get a former student to elaborate or explain in different terms. I certainly needed that.
Judge away, but don't be surprised if someone explains that your criticism misses Reinhardt's intention.
But seriously, can we move away from who said what and instead discuss the specific ideas?
Dave
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Re: the old guy I took lessons from who told dubious stories about himself - I remembered he claimed he was the lead trumpet on the Lucky Strike show and that he was always the soloist. I see there were a number of shows Lucky Strike was associated with - I was a kid and didn't know enough to ask him to clarify. I have no idea if trumpet solos were even an element of the broadcasts.
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Chinese C
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LyonLover
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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To give an update, I flew out to Washington for a few days to see Doug twice and it was well worth it. He typed me as a IIIB and i'm now placing more up and to my left without twisting, and using my pivot more. Also much more soft playing and walking the buzz in and out. Doug said that IIIBs need to learn how to control the bottom lip and keep it in place, and properly walking in the buzz and free buzzing should help with coordinating those muscles. IIIBs can be a bit "flabby" naturally. It was an extremely enlightening experience for me and i'd suggest a lesson or 2 with Doug Elliott for anyone having embouchure problems. If I wrote everything I learned over my 2 days I would fill this whole page up lol. He's clearly a brilliant person and has a great understanding of embouchure mechanics more than anyone else i've met.
My playing so far is much more controlled, i'm not having the airball problems either. The only thing that is different is notes above high C aren't really there yet, but Doug and I are both fairly confident that they will return once i've broken into this new setup as it was a pretty big difference. Already a HUGE difference from the first time he had me walk the buzz in on Saturday to now. I can now walk the buzz into a nice sound which I couldn't do previously. And I can take it up to high C from a walk in. I am confident i'll get better each time I play now as long as I keep adhering to my proper way of playing and don't stray off again. A few sessions of buzzing and walking it into the horn every day, as well as lots of soft playing. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:25 am Post subject: walking in |
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An earlier discussion about Reinhardt 'walking in' is here -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1652186#1652186
I don't know how that corresponds to what Lyonlover was taught or is doing.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Yes that's it, except I don't agree with "a high mosquito like tone" and that's not what I teach, even if it is Reinhardt's words. I like a more open sound, and not pinched at all.
And it's continuing the SAME pitch from the freebuzz into the horn. I usually start with low C, but LyonLover was very comfortable buzzing and buzzing into F to G, so that's where we started. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Any follow-up on this? Any closer to re-acquiring that two-octave F scale?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Bundy
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