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Total Chops Meltdown


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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:20 pm    Post subject: Total Chops Meltdown Reply with quote

I'm sitting here between sets 3 and 4 of a 4 set classic rock band gig trying to figure out what in the heck is going on.

I should probably start by saying that I underwent a surgery 2 weeks ago today to repair an umbilical/belly button hernia, which went well and I seem to be recovering without issue.

I've played with this band before and I got booked to play tonight a couple of months ago, before I knew I was going to have the surgery.

I was playing fine on Monday when we rehearsed, but last night things felt off so I stopped playing. Tonight before the gig started we were running sound check and I had a line that went up to a 1st ledger B, and my chops just aired out starting at around G. I mean nothing - just air.

This whole gig has been a struggle and I'm taking down everything over a G, and even then, I'm struggling with anything E and above. At this point I'm getting to the point where I can hardly even produce a tone. And I've got a full set left.

I've never in my life had a total chops breakdown. I've chopped out before but this is completely different.

I'm bummed and I'm scared - I'll have to give my chops a fair bit of recovery time before I even begin to sit down and take things back to square one in the practice room.

The only thing I can figure is that I'm not blowing right because I'm still recovering from the hernia - I expected playing to be a bit more challenging, but I wasn't expecting this.

Wish me luck on the last set.

I'll update this thread as I go through trying to diagnose and fix whatever is wrong.
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LyonLover
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After 2 total and complete chop breakdowns (one last August and another early this month) I decided it was time to look into the Reinhardt stuff as something was clearly off with my playing mechanics.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two weeks after major surgery? Are you crazy?
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Two weeks after major surgery? Are you crazy?

I don't see this surgery as being major. Should I?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The result of surgery is a gestalt. Your surgery works on a part of your body that you use in trumpet playing. But more than that, surgery and the anesthesia has an effect on your whole body. Among other things it affects your mind and even your muscles, like your facial muscles (chops). I wouldn't push it.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Yes. The result of surgery is a gestalt. Your surgery works on a part of your body that you use in trumpet playing. But more than that, surgery and the anesthesia has an effect on your whole body. Among other things it affects your mind and even your muscles, like your facial muscles (chops). I wouldn't push it.

Welp, it's a bit late for that!

I don't have another gig until April 2nd - Palm Sunday - and that's not going to have the same demand that tonight's gig had. Hopefully I can get things back on an even keel by then.
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you feel it is a blowing issue or are you just guessing that based on the surgery?

The last melt-down I had was Christmas Eve. We had some exceptionally cold temperatures and the heat was out in the church. I didn’t think it was all that cold but there was something wrong. I had no strength. I survived by switching to a smaller diameter piece I fortunately had in my bag. Is the venue temperature OK? (I have never been able to play in cold temps but I believe you have a military background and may be used to it.)

My lip-feel can really change if they are even slightly chapped, too. Maybe that?
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Yes. The result of surgery is a gestalt. Your surgery works on a part of your body that you use in trumpet playing. But more than that, surgery and the anesthesia has an effect on your whole body. Among other things it affects your mind and even your muscles, like your facial muscles (chops). I wouldn't push it.

Yes.

You need R E S T.
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some great advice here, as usual. But I think it's possible to 'rehab' without completely taking it off your face (which is not great for endurance either).

I'd recommend checking out http://www.embouchures.com/ and looking through the absolute wealth of info there, particularly the section on 'Blocked Buzzing'
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had hernia surgery a few years ago; presumably a similar procedure to yours. I'd assume that you are having issues with breathing (abdominal muscles) and that, in turn, is messing with your chops and endurance. If so, rest and time will resolve that.

Rest doesn't have to mean no practice -- though follow whatever advice your surgeon provided. [I worked out a plan with my surgeon, a clarinet player.] In my case, I started practicing again the day after my surgery. I initially avoided upper register, intervals and dynamic extremes -- basically anything that would cause me to tense my abdominal muscles. That meant lots of Clarke, flexibility studies, etc., vice "music." Over the course of six weeks -- the time between my surgery and my next big gig -- I gradually eased those restrictions and worked my way back to regular practice and then performance.

In your case the train has already left the station, but you might still give (serious) thought to easing back and making sure you don't wind up injuring yourself or establishing a bad habit as you try to compensate while your body is recovering.

Good luck, and best wishes for a speedy recovery!
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what a melt down is like, Patrick, and it is indeed scary. I am going through that right now after losing a crown in my lower front teeth. It, along with a rebuilt tooth that was being supported with the crowned tooth came out and cannot be repaired because the foundation has partly crumbled. That is leaving a gap just to the left of center and it is playing hell with my embouchure, causing my lips to swell and for me to blow nothing but dead air after just playing a few bars.
I need dental work and the addition of a lower partial. In the meantime I find that by using Robinson's Recovery Lip Balm is getting me through things by eliminating the swelling.

Good luck with your problem, Patrick. And like kehaulani, I feel you made a mistake in playing so soon after surgery.

George
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh that’s rough. Wish I had some advice to share. Just don’t ‘panic’ and try to force things. Good luck, hope you sort things put soon.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good comments, and this is definitely a coulda-woulda-shoulda situation. I think what really bewilders me about this whole situation is that I'm not new at this - I've got 41 years behind the horn, and I've been gigging since I was 17, and I've never had anything like this happen.

In hindsight I should have bailed out on the gig as soon as the surgery was scheduled. That would have given the band time to get someone without there being any kind of hard feelings or scramble. I wanted to play this gig though - I like these guys and while it's not the highest quality musically, I have a good time playing with them, and If the situation changes, I wouldn't mind being their main trumpet player. I honestly thought I could do this gig with no issues.

As for forcing things with the horn....

My chops are SORE today, and I wonder if I didn't damage my upper lip practicing this week leading to the chops meltdown - some of this stuff is pretty aggressive.

Of course I was on the gig when things started to go bad and I realized there was a serious problem - there wasn't much I could do but try to make it through the gig, so yeah - I did try to force my chops to work even when they weren't working at all.

This church gig coming up is in 2 weeks, and I honestly don't know yet if I'm going to be able to do it. It's 11 pages of music across 5 tunes, rather than the 43 pages I had last night, but some of it is still pretty aggressive. I know most of it - most are repeats from playing this gig last year - but I wonder now if I should contact the music director and see if we can find someone to play for me. I have a very good rapport with her because I've worked with her for years - I'm sure she'd understand, even with the short notice.

I'll wait until the soreness subsides before I try to play again, and on the off chance that the lip swelling might be due to something bacterial, my horn and mouthpieces will get a thorough cleaning.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
... This church gig coming up is in 2 weeks, and I honestly don't know yet if I'm going to be able to do it. ...
- but I wonder now if I should contact the music director and see if we can find someone to play for me. I have a very good rapport with her because I've worked with her for years - I'm sure she'd understand, even with the short notice. ...

------------------------
yes, bail on the church music - there's still time for them to find (or you suggest) a player.

If you are still sensitive or aware of abdominal issues from the surgery, that might have caused you to ease-off on blowing pressure, and resulted in too much embouchuyre & mpc pressure in attempt to compensate --> sore chops.
Also, you mentioned having done extensive practice BEFORE the incident.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on what you wrote, skipping the church gig does indeed seem like the wiser choice.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
trickg wrote:
... This church gig coming up is in 2 weeks, and I honestly don't know yet if I'm going to be able to do it. ...
- but I wonder now if I should contact the music director and see if we can find someone to play for me. I have a very good rapport with her because I've worked with her for years - I'm sure she'd understand, even with the short notice. ...

------------------------
yes, bail on the church music - there's still time for them to find (or you suggest) a player.

If you are still sensitive or aware of abdominal issues from the surgery, that might have caused you to ease-off on blowing pressure, and resulted in too much embouchure & mpc pressure in attempt to compensate --> sore chops.
Also, you mentioned having done extensive practice BEFORE the incident.

No - I didn't mention extensive practice before - I practiced and ran through the music, but it wasn't in any way what I would call extensive.

Remember, I'm not new to this. From a sheer gig count perspective, I literally have thousands of real, paid gigs - it's not like this is guesswork for me. I think this situation is an exception that most likely was brought on by unforeseen circumstances related to the hernia surgery. Everything else I did prior to this gig was normal for what I've been doing for the last 35 years I've been working as a trumpet player.

I just called the music director and let her know what was going on - she's more worried about me than worried that I might not be able to make the gig, which is good, and I think I might have someone else lined up to take the church gig, which would give me more time to figure out what might be going on with my chops.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been there done that I feel really sorry for you. The more we identify with the horn (and who doesn´t) the more we feel lost on a desert shore, if not nailing that gig. Sort of.

Obviously you belong to those of us who boldly state that neither age, sickness, surgery or what not will affect our playing. Trumpet Herold. And I don´t think that I speak of only myself.

But, a surgery done to your belly just might have affected your playing? Ehh?? Hmm...
Silly done of you - admit that!!!!

But we are not the horn, the horn is an accessoar. And we do age. Which in itself is a lucky thing (the opposite is gloomy)

So it´s no wonder that your typing on the buttons results in a senctence hidden amongst all the others: I wonder if I didn't damage my upper lip practicing this week leading to the chops meltdown - some of this stuff is pretty aggressive.

My hypothesis is that you - when playing this "pretty aggressive " stuff more mor less subconsciously pressed just a little too hard in order to prevent your belly muscles from kicking in thus causing a fine example of "instant overuse syndrom". Not in any way getting better by the following playing. Might even have resulted in a non visible internal bleeding in your upper lip.

Good news: no melt down of your chops. A temporary wound to your ego. You seem to such be such a solid player with 41 years of experience - come on - you´ll soon be on track again.

So practice down low, don´t try hastening the process. And reflect carefully: "Am I able to play that church gig or should I look for a sub (not a replacement!!!)?
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are damn lucky you didn't injure yourself!!!
On Feb. 17, I had to have some major surgery to remove an abnormal growth on my colon. (I lost around 3" of it.)
My surgeon said not even to lift up my trumpet for at least 2 weeks.
I did try to buzz the mouthpiece a week after the surgery, but the ab muscles let me know it was not a good idea at all. It hurt!
It is now 4 weeks later and I can play some long tones on my Schilke (it takes a little less effort than my Bach) with no discomfort. I have not tried to play above the staff, either.

My real question is did you even ask the doctor when you could play again?

R. Tomasek
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
You are damn lucky you didn't injure yourself!!!
On Feb. 17, I had to have some major surgery to remove an abnormal growth on my colon. (I lost around 3" of it.)
My surgeon said not even to lift up my trumpet for at least 2 weeks.
I did try to buzz the mouthpiece a week after the surgery, but the ab muscles let me know it was not a good idea at all. It hurt!
It is now 4 weeks later and I can play some long tones on my Schilke (it takes a little less effort than my Bach) with no discomfort. I have not tried to play above the staff, either.

My real question is did you even ask the doctor when you could play again?

R. Tomasek

Of course I asked the doctor! She didn't seem to think there would be an issue.

This was a basic hernia operation, and she used surgical mesh, so there was no danger of it busting out again, and the internal stitches used to tack the mesh into place are likely mostly dissolved by now anyway.

I talked to an old friend of mine who is a Doc Reinhardt method teacher, and we talked about some concept things. I'm going to lay off the horn altogether for at least a week, and then I'll go back to square one - just getting the sound and focus back. Although I've never had an absolute failure of chops before, I've done this several times in the past so I know what to do to reset my chops.

Fun times.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from the other comments, sometimes just placing your mouthpiece in just the wrong place (including slightly more or less lip than your used to) can have a profound effect on the whole system.

No experience with hernias but have experience with misplacing my mouthpiece placement for sometimes weeks.
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