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Total Chops Meltdown


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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Apart from the other comments, sometimes just placing your mouthpiece in just the wrong place (including slightly more or less lip than your used to) can have a profound effect on the whole system.

No experience with hernias but have experience with misplacing my mouthpiece placement for sometimes weeks.

I think that there was a whole mixed soup and salad of stuff that went into creating this situation - call it the perfect storm.

I can tell you that without a doubt incorrect mouthpiece placement was an issue - the place that is the sorest is the left side of my upper lip. When I'm playing normally the pressure is not there - it's on my lower lip.

I've heard of other people experiencing this, and even saw it firsthand with an old friend and mentor of mine one time on a community band jazz band concert. He was playing lead and he had a total chops failure. I was on 3rd or 4th book that night and he asked me to step up and cover lead. This guy is a GOOD player too - if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck on your recovery.

I had a major chop failure in early 1990 when I was working on an MM at UNT. I totaled a car in an ice storm and had a whiplash injury. The doctor put me in a neck brace. I didn't play my horn for a few days and then went to resume my lesson teaching schedule, neck brace and all. The first lesson of the week I had a student who was struggling with a certain passage so I pulled my horn out of the bag to show her how it should be done--and all the air went shooting out of the left side of my mouth--I could not control the muscles on the left side of my embouchure and could not get a sound out of my horn.

The doctor said I had likely pinched a cranial nerve in the accident. Long story short, I had to lay off the horn for about six weeks, drop out of grad school for a couple of semesters, and work a regular job. I returned to school to finish my last year of coursework when I could play again, but never regained the right feeling in my chops and I completely folded halfway through my master's jazz recital--on the last tune I felt like I was just playing on skin and no muscle. It took years to get the sweet spot back--long after I left the music business.

Hopefully your recovery time will be shorter and allow you to keep bringing in extra cash!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spitvalve, that sounds like it was awful. I'm not anticipating a long recovery or a permanent change to my chops - I don't think it's going to be quite that bad.

With that said, Doug Elliot lives in the area here, and it might be a good idea to go see him to see if I can figure out some things with my chops - it's never too late, right?
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
Two weeks after major surgery? Are you crazy?

I don't see this surgery as being major. Should I?


I've had 2 hernia surgeries over the years.. one in the groin area and the other belly button - arthroscopic repair w/ mesh insert.

Two weeks, I was still very week, support wise.. I remember playing my first very easy (chop wise) USAF gig 3 weeks after, I had very little strength or endurance.. 6-8 weeks before I began to feel more like 100%.

Yeah... Not the chops.
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Just_Another_Hack
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Member is upset.
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Last edited by Just_Another_Hack on Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just_Another_Hack wrote:
1) Playing two weeks after abdominal surgery is likely the dumbest thing I've read YTD. So congrats on that.

2) Find a sub. REST.

Have you personally experienced an abdominal surgery for an umbilical hernia?

I played two church services on drums the Sunday prior and had no issues whatsoever. Also, my surgeon didn't think it was dumb, and the literature says it's ok to resume normal activities as you feel you are ready.

I think it's possible I injured my upper lip practicing on Thursday working through the solo in Chicago "Beginnings." That solo (as transcribed) is a bit of a blow.

Prior to that everything was still fine.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may have overdone it when practicing but, playing the devil's advocate:

"I played two church services on drums the Sunday prior and had no issues whatsoever. Also, my surgeon didn't think it was dumb, and the literature says it's ok to resume normal activities as you feel you are ready."

One doesn't play drums with abdominal support.
Playing trumpet is not a normal activity.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
You may have overdone it when practicing but, playing the devil's advocate:

"I played two church services on drums the Sunday prior and had no issues whatsoever. Also, my surgeon didn't think it was dumb, and the literature says it's ok to resume normal activities as you feel you are ready."

One doesn't play drums with abdominal support.
Playing trumpet is not a normal activity.

You use a lot more abdominal super playing drums than you might think.
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Just_Another_Hack
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what? Keep doing what you're doing. That seems to be working great. In fact, throw in some sit-ups while you're at it.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just_Another_Hack wrote:
You know what? Keep doing what you're doing. That seems to be working great. In fact, throw in some sit-ups while you're at it.

Maybe I will. I've got 35+ years of playing and getting paid - everything from military band, brass quintet, Latin band, rock band, Big Band, concert band, orchestra, liturgical, and I'm a pretty fair drummer on top of that.

It seems to have worked out pretty well so far.

This was a rough spot and in hindsight maybe not a great choice. Do I think I'll get through it? Yes I do.

Also, I asked you a question a bit further up in the thread - you have not answered it.
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Last edited by trickg on Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:15 am; edited 3 times in total
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg has been a valuable member here for many years.
He is taking some time off to heal and with that I suggest that we let him have the last word - if he so desires - and let's leave him be.

R. Tomasek
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
trickg has been a valuable member here for many years.
He is taking some time off to heal and with that I suggest that we let him have the last word - if he so desires - and let's leave him be.

R. Tomasek

I appreciate that, but if someone else thinks they need to have the last word, so be it.

I would like to step back a minute though and talk about why I wanted to post this thread, along with the thought process behind why I went ahead and played the gig.

The main reason I started this thread is because although I'd never experienced it before, I've seen someone have a total chops meltdown firsthand, and I know some other people who have experienced it. When it happened to me, I was absolutely bewildered that it was happening to me. Part of the reasons for starting the thread was to show that it can happen to anyone under the "right" circumstances.

I'd like to also talk a bit about why I moved forward to play this gig 2 weeks after my surgery.

I've always healed fast and I've always been fairly healthy. I'm 52 years old but I don't carry myself that way because I have maintained a fairly healthy lifestyle, and I've always been the guy who just kinda pushes through and gets it done.

The main reason I didn't "get a sub," as Just_Another_Hack suggested, is because I WAS the sub. There are two guys who do most of the playing for this band and neither was available. I've played with this band before and they liked me, so they called me when their guys were not able to make the gig. One thing has been true all through my playing career - I'm not a flake. If I tell you I can play the gig, I'm going to play it. I'll show up on time, and I'm going to be as prepared as I can be. I have gained a reputation for dependability. I booked this gig before I booked the surgery.

The other reason I went ahead with it was because I legitimately thought it was going to be fine - I knew I may not play to the level I usually do, but I wasn't expecting a chops meltdown. Why would I expect that if it had never happened to me before? I started testing my playing about a week after my surgery date - it didn't seem to be an issue.

I don't know if playing this gig was a good thing or a bad thing in the eyes of the band. On one hand I didn't leave them having to look for yet another sub, essentially breaking my word to them that I'd do the gig. On the the hand, I didn't play worth a dang - I tried my absolute best and gave everything I had, but the performance itself came up short.

In any case, I think that this thread has some value. I can admit that playing a classic rock gig 2 weeks after hernia surgery wasn't a great idea, and it's something I won't repeat in the future should the circumstances present themselves again. It also shows the members of this forum that the right mix of bad circumstances can lead to a chops breakdown - call it preventative advice for others.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd update this thread.

I played just a little bit over the lunch break today, just to see what might still be amiss - as of today it's been 5 days since I've played.

Nothing is amiss, apparently. Things felt maybe a bit tight, but nothing else seemed to be wrong. I had good sound and control over the range of the horn, good focus...

While I probably "could" play the upcoming gig on April 2nd, I think I'm still going to sit this one out. Just because I played ok for a few minutes doesn't mean I won't have a breakdown if I try to play more or longer, and I need to be sure that isn't going to happen. I can't hedge my bets on that in just a couple of days.

If I absolutely HAD to play the gig, I probably could, but since my buddy is already set to play it, I think I'll just let him have it.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wise decision!

BTW: You wrote "the right mix of bad circumstances can lead to a chops breakdown"
The other day I succeeded in bruising my upper lip when shaving - and an electric razor to that. No problems I thought but after practising I noticed a small swelling. Then out of the blue I wasked asked to sub tp 2 in a rather good big band. So off I went. Indeed a hard rehearsal. Arriving at home my wife said " your lip is bleeding....". Next day big swelling.
But that evening new rehearsal with my usual big band. Dance gig around the corner. Pulling out my trumpet I notice that I´ve forgotten my mouthpiece......Was forced to borrow a Bach 1 1/4 C from my section buddy, quickly finding that time has gone by. I played lead on a 1 1/4C during the 1970s early 1980s. No problems at all. But now....Well I managed, barely, but today - well I´ve been better-looking.

Take way; Mr Murphy is ever present and might hit at anytime.
And I should have stayed at home...
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Take way; Mr Murphy is ever present and might hit at anytime.

I though the razor was Occam’s, not Murphy’s.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Take way; Mr Murphy is ever present and might hit at anytime.

I though the razor was Occam’s, not Murphy’s.

Interesting thought - now that I telework all the time because of COVID, I don't shave daily anymore.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! "explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements"? Talking about outdated Newtonian explanations.....Ever heard of chaos theory??

Mr Murphy has updated his tools. Today he´s a quantum mechanic working in all directions in infinite places at the same time in a seemingly random fashion (it isn´t ).

You just wait and see!

Ps not shaving daily? Might not serve your high register. I mean, Charlie Shavers. He shaved everyday.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd post a quick update to this.

I took a full week off before approaching a chops fix, and as bad luck and fate would have it, just as I got a couple of practice sessions in, I got an ingrown hair on my upper lip right where the mouthpiece contacts, so I was laying off letting that heal.

As more fate would have it, I got a call today asking if I could sub last minute for the gig tonight. They were between a rock and a hard place - their main guy had an emergency situation, and the other main guy was out of town.

I took the gig.

At this point I'm 5 weeks out of my hernia surgery and I can push air with my normal compression and velocity, although I was concerned about endurance simply because I hadn't played much since my chops meltdown.

So far, so good. I'm 2 sets down and things have gone well. I'm starting to get a bit tired, but I'm still hitting the licks. My accuracy could be better - it's good enough, but I know I'd be better if I had a bit more time in the practice room between then and now. It is what it is.

In hindsight, I wouldn't have played that first gig. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

So that's the update. Next set starts in about 8 minutes.
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dr_jay
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick,

Hey: good job, man! Sound like you're well on your way out of melt-down territory!

Cheers,
Jay
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear you are getting back in the saddle, Patrick. All the best to you.
George
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