We all know cats who can't play unless they do an extremely specific warmup, 90 minutes of lip slurs every single day, etc. That's who I'm referring to. Cats who are slaves to extremely fickle chops. That's a function of lousy technique.
Cats who are slaves....
That's a function of lousy technic....
Great players also need to keep chops in form.
And at which point do reach the status of a good technic so you can stop practicing the things you seem to dislike.
I think my setup is quite ok but I do a lot of slurs, long tones and so on, first because I like them and second because I have the for you obviously ridiculous idea that I always can improve in sound and endurance by this kind of practice.
You're not understanding my point. But that's ok. _________________ Professional lower-split 3rd clarinet player.
Great players use very, very little tension in their chops or body. They rely on efficiency. Consequently, they need to rarely, if ever, practice. They make it look easy, because it IS easy when your technique is on point...
You lost me at "great players do not practice."
Maybe this was meant to say "great players do not constantly force their embouchure into submission and call it practice" ...?
The thing about tension and efficiency is valid.
Cherry picking quotes is intellectually dishonest. I said...great players don't NEED to practice, specifically when it comes to keeping the chops "in shape" (whatever that means). I'm not saying they DO NOT practice. Of course they practice. _________________ Professional lower-split 3rd clarinet player.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9007 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:59 am Post subject:
spitvalve wrote:
A girl I dated in college once asked me if I did anything besides music. I said "there's no time to do anything else." At the time I was working a part time job, playing in four ensembles, teaching lessons, preparing for a recital, and playing as many gigs as I could scrounge up. She asked what I would do if I had more time. Before I could stop myself one word came out of my mouth: "Practice." It was the beginning of the end of our relationship.
LOL. Billy Harper was talking about practice dedication and he said he told his girl friends that, whatever, they would always be secondary to his practicing. Love it or leave it. This guy's a master player and he still practices every chance he gets.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:01 am Post subject:
JimmyDamsgaard wrote:
The other day a pro cornet player for 38 years in the royal national orchestra told me, that he uses every performance for practice, but never practices more than that.
Yep, you shed your butt off to get to that level, and once you land a gig like that your job is to nail the gig every night. Save the chops and musical focus for the gig.
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 618 Location: Hilton Head, SC
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:50 am Post subject:
Ray Crisara, back in the days when he was a top trumpeter on the NY scene, once told me that he had to play at least 2 hours a day in order to perform up to his high standards. He said that some days he could accumulate at least 2 hours playing in the studios, and that would suffice. But he added that there were some days that you could sit in the studio for hours, but do very little actual playing. On those days he had to do additional practice to get up to his 2 hour daily goal. _________________ Tom Barreca
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:17 pm Post subject:
spitvalve wrote:
A girl I dated in college once asked me if I did anything besides music. I said "there's no time to do anything else." At the time I was working a part time job, playing in four ensembles, teaching lessons, preparing for a recital, and playing as many gigs as I could scrounge up. She asked what I would do if I had more time. Before I could stop myself one word came out of my mouth:"Practice." It was the beginning of the end of our relationship.
Touching on some of this, I think that everyone is different. I know guys who hardly practice - they go to the gig, they nail it down, the horn goes in the case, and they might do a bit of playing between gigs, but they aren't digging in.
I also know guys who practice everything all the time - they are always digging in and working hard to improve something, prepare something, etc.
In my own efforts, for me the work I do in the practice room is mostly to keep from backsliding, or to claw my way back up the mountain if I do backslide. Years ago I developed a pretty succinct practice routine where I was hitting the major technical points to keep things going - it took about 40-45 minutes. I'd alternate between that and keeping the band charts fresh. I developed that abbreviated practice routine because I didn't have time for much else - between my day job, being a husband, father of 2, maintaining a house, yard, cars, etc, I just didn't have a lot of time.
I'd either spend time working that routine, or I'd spend some time maintaining my the music I needed to prepare, but I stopped practicing to improve, and I certainly wasn't doing multiple hours per day. Then again, maybe that's why I never got any better than I did. When I was younger I did - in my first years as an Army trumpet player I had the horn in my hands 4-6 hours most days, but that was then. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:33 pm Post subject:
Just_Another_Hack wrote:
delano wrote:
Just_Another_Hack wrote:
We all know cats who can't play unless they do an extremely specific warmup, 90 minutes of lip slurs every single day, etc. That's who I'm referring to. Cats who are slaves to extremely fickle chops. That's a function of lousy technique.
Cats who are slaves....
That's a function of lousy technic....
Great players also need to keep chops in form.
And at which point do reach the status of a good technic so you can stop practicing the things you seem to dislike.
I think my setup is quite ok but I do a lot of slurs, long tones and so on, first because I like them and second because I have the for you obviously ridiculous idea that I always can improve in sound and endurance by this kind of practice.
You're not understanding my point. But that's ok.
Nobody does but people are polite here.
BTW this whole thing of ‘no need for practice bragging’ has to do with fear to be judged on the only thing you can’t change: talent.
It’s a very well known phenomenon in bicycle-racing (I did that for years).
Everybody in the dressing room, especially the winners always says they never practice. It’s their way of intimidating the other guys. They don’t practice and they win so they must be so talented that you can better give up. It became famous by a book of a renner who bluntly said in a full dressing room: I practice to death. After that complete silence, nobody said a word and left the room ashamed.
We all know cats who can't play unless they do an extremely specific warmup, 90 minutes of lip slurs every single day, etc. That's who I'm referring to. Cats who are slaves to extremely fickle chops. That's a function of lousy technique.
Cats who are slaves....
That's a function of lousy technic....
Great players also need to keep chops in form.
And at which point do reach the status of a good technic so you can stop practicing the things you seem to dislike.
I think my setup is quite ok but I do a lot of slurs, long tones and so on, first because I like them and second because I have the for you obviously ridiculous idea that I always can improve in sound and endurance by this kind of practice.
You're not understanding my point. But that's ok.
Nobody does but people are polite here.
BTW this whole thing of ‘no need for practice bragging’ has to do with fear to be judged on the only thing you can’t change: talent.
It’s a very well known phenomenon in bicycle-racing (I did that for years).
Everybody in the dressing room, especially the winners always says they never practice. It’s their way of intimidating the other guys. They don’t practice and they win so they must be so talented that you can better give up. It became famous by a book of a renner who bluntly said in a full dressing room: I practice to death. After that complete silence, nobody said a word and left the room ashamed.
Talent is irrelevant. There's great technique, and there's technique that's less than great. That's it. Also, peddling a bike (an athletic activity) has nothing in common with playing the trumpet (not an athletic activity). _________________ Professional lower-split 3rd clarinet player.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:54 pm Post subject:
I can relate somewhat to the OP. I've always struggled with using too much arm pressure. When I practice a lot I get really good at using too much arm pressure and my chops become less responsive as a result. So generally I do better when I practice less. I'm not recommending this approach by a long shot. And I'm truly hoping to get on the other side of this so I can practice in a way that builds productively. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: I Play Better When I Don't Practice
wohlrab wrote:
Like the title says.
Background: Semi pro trumpet player, working on pro. Most of my calls are for rock, big band, small group jazz. 1-3 gigs per week + rehearsals/jams. Working range up to E or so. I swear, when I'm practicing a couple hours a day, I'm consistent, but my sound is dull and my range suffers. I feel heavy. I practice intelligently, nothing too outlandish.
This last week I didn't have many playing obligations outside of teaching and I swear I came into my gig on Friday light as a feather. Range was there, my sound was alive. Didn't play the rest of the weekend. Then rehearsal last night? Sure, pass me the lead book. I want all the solos.
This has been petty much consistent for months now and it's annoying because I have things I want to practice. I want to be enjoying the process of getting better and pushing myself, but I'm just not on my A game on stage when I'm doing that.
What's up with that?
“My sound was alive”
There is nothing like fresh chops.
Perhaps a focus on efficiency can keep that feeling.
If you are at maximum efficiency disregard.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:31 pm Post subject:
trickg wrote:
spitvalve wrote:
A girl I dated in college once asked me if I did anything besides music. I said "there's no time to do anything else." At the time I was working a part time job, playing in four ensembles, teaching lessons, preparing for a recital, and playing as many gigs as I could scrounge up. She asked what I would do if I had more time. Before I could stop myself one word came out of my mouth:"Practice." It was the beginning of the end of our relationship.
Just so you know, she dumped me and married a business major and lived happily ever after. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:00 am Post subject:
Just_Another_Hack wrote:
Talent is irrelevant. There's great technique, and there's technique that's less than great. That's it. Also, peddling a bike (an athletic activity) has nothing in common with playing the trumpet (not an athletic activity).
The title is catchy but the op already asked and answered his own question.
As a full time player it took me 20 years to figure out that the face and the brain need to rest and reboot when possible.
In my 35 years of playing I only met one or two trumpet players who got "lighter", more at ease and more flexible the more hours they played every day.
On long run heavy shows, 8 shows a week with 5 on the weekend it felt like my trumpet was made of lead. Then a day off, light warmup in the morning on Tuesday, then back in the trenches with "fresh chops".
Love the fresh chops. A few more chips with the fresh chops but so easy!
Best of luck _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student
Doc Severinsen, William Vacciano, Claude Gordon are the first three that immediately spring to mind to refute this. These guys were famously VORACIOUS practicers. I know there are THOUSNDS more......
I think there are several different conversations going on here and I'm not sure they directly address the O/P's question.
I think there are basically 3 possibilities:
1. You need time to recover from your gigs and when you practice you don't get that.
2. Because you take a lot of days off, playing after a day "on" feels unfamiliar.
3. You are doing something funky in the practice room that you are not doing onstage.
It's one thing to benefit from a day off after 8 shows in a week. It's another to be unable to practice in between your 1-3 gigs per week. And it's one thing to find that practicing for 2 hours on the day of a gig does not help you, but another to find that practicing for 2 hours the day before a gig is a problem.
I'd try to figure out which of those 3 scenarios is in play here. How you do you feel if you have gigs on consecutive nights? If you feel fine, then it's a good bet that it's some version of #3.
Some people on this thread seem to have this weird idea that practicing and/or warming up constitutes a moral failing or something. It is one thing to not NEED to practice — although I have met some pretty amazing trumpet players and I'm quite sure exactly zero of them would put themselves in that category — but it is quite another to not be ABLE to practice. To me, the latter seems like a pretty clear indication that something is wrong, and probably something that is going to seriously interfere with any attempt at being a full-time professional trumpet player. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO
Joined: 30 Mar 2015 Posts: 131 Location: California
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:23 pm Post subject:
Nonsense Eliminator wrote:
I think there are several different conversations going on here and I'm not sure they directly address the O/P's question.
I think there are basically 3 possibilities:
1. You need time to recover from your gigs and when you practice you don't get that.
2. Because you take a lot of days off, playing after a day "on" feels unfamiliar.
3. You are doing something funky in the practice room that you are not doing onstage.
It's one thing to benefit from a day off after 8 shows in a week. It's another to be unable to practice in between your 1-3 gigs per week. And it's one thing to find that practicing for 2 hours on the day of a gig does not help you, but another to find that practicing for 2 hours the day before a gig is a problem.
I'd try to figure out which of those 3 scenarios is in play here. How you do you feel if you have gigs on consecutive nights? If you feel fine, then it's a good bet that it's some version of #3.
Some people on this thread seem to have this weird idea that practicing and/or warming up constitutes a moral failing or something. It is one thing to not NEED to practice — although I have met some pretty amazing trumpet players and I'm quite sure exactly zero of them would put themselves in that category — but it is quite another to not be ABLE to practice. To me, the latter seems like a pretty clear indication that something is wrong, and probably something that is going to seriously interfere with any attempt at being a full-time professional trumpet player.
Lmao very accurate name. Number 3 is what I've been suspicious of. I've started with adjusting my routine to something lighter and more focused on technique than sheer muscle. Something where I'm really honest about my fatigue during the session. The other commentor's post about not needing to wrestle the chops into submission every day was also helpful to think about.
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:31 pm Post subject: Perhaps consider the Quality of Practice.
This is an interesting thread.
I've talked to some professional players. I am an amateur. One, in particular, stated that his practice sessions are "relaxed." His rationale: this keeps his chops "fresh" for the gig. He was very clear to practice as much as you reasonably can to build yourself up but not destroy. I"m not sure if this helps your situation. Hang in there!
Already some good advice here, especially by Nonsense Eliminator.
Guillaume Jehl, now principal in Berlin, said that Gabor Tarkovi could practice for "5" hours before a mahler concert and then play principal no problem. Meanwhile, Guillaume couldn't do that and only spent his time doing a light warming up before playing 2nd on the same concert.
You have to find the balance that works for you, but first you have to get to a really healthy place in your trumpet playing. I don't believe you are there, otherwise you wouldn't frame it as: "I play better when I don't practice" but rather "I play better when my chops aren't fatigued." But you've admitted as much in your response to Nonsense E.
It's a fun journey when you discover the power of keeping the chops fresh. Now you have to find that point where you can work on the skills you need to and can adequately recover the following day. It's just like an endurance athlete.
I read somewhere that Paul Desmond said he stopped ( or maybe reduced ) practicing because it made him play too fast _________________ Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )
Lmao very accurate name. Number 3 is what I've been suspicious of. I've started with adjusting my routine to something lighter and more focused on technique than sheer muscle. Something where I'm really honest about my fatigue during the session. The other commentor's post about not needing to wrestle the chops into submission every day was also helpful to think about.
That sounds like a good approach. My take on practicing is that if I'm too tired/stiff/braindead to play it exactly how I want it, I should almost certainly put it down. That might mean for a minute or 10 minutes or 2 hours.
Put another way, if I'm playing exactly how I want, I'm not working very hard at all, and I'm recovering from what work I did do before I put the horn back on my face. As long as I keep that up, the benefit of practicing — which is almost always some form of improved efficiency, either in general or for a specific passage I'm working on — more than outweighs any "used up" endurance for the day. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
