Vintage versus new Pro cornets

[kerouack]

Hello,
I would like to have opinion about comparing old with new cornets in terms of sound, intonation, easy of playing, slotting, easy high register and more.

I have tried lot of Pro trumpets, but only have an Old Special Cornet that I bought from a friend for 600 euros.
I would like to know how it compares to a new Yamaha Neo, a pro modern Besson, a pro new Getzen or a Bohme Cornet.
Of course the price is quite different, pro cornets cost more or less 3.000 euros, but I would like to know how much better are one of those ones and in which respect. I can not try them in my city, even asking for it in a shop, so is not easy to go to another country to try them.
I suppose engineers in Yamaha or Besson investigated and improved new things last 40 years.

Also would be good to talk about how old cornets that cost around 1.200 euros, like Olds Recording or Conn or Martin compares to that new pro horns.

With trumpets I was never into old models, for me is first time checking an old instrument.

Thank you.

[sd4f]

Some vintage stuff is good, some is meh, I don't really worry about the age as much as condition, and whether the instrument feels like it's a quality instrument. I do consider modern features though. For cornets, that means double adjustable valve slides, and nothing less. If it hasn't got a trigger or slide for the first valve, I don't want to know about it.

It's worth mentioning that designs don't change as much as you may think. The besson 928 design was intruduced in the mid 1980's, so it has been around for quite a while, and older sovereign cornets are fairly capable instruments in their own right. It really comes down to price and condition. If you get lucky, you can pick up something decent, albeit old, in good condition, for a really good price, and it will always be better than mid range instrument.

Otherwise, something worth thinking about is buying well regarded mid range instruments. Two come to mind, Schagerl's "Hans Gansch" cornet or CarolBrass higher end cornets.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schagerl_hans_gansch_bb_cornet.htm

If you're in the market for an instrument, I think you'll ultimately get what you pay for, and if you determine that it's not right, you can return it to Thomann. Alternatively if in the longer run, you find something better, then it's not as painful to step up in the future, not having made a high end purchase.

What has changed is, you don't tend to hear that any of the newer production instruments get critically panned immensely. I get the feeling they're all competent instruments in their own right, some may differ slightly and suit different players.

Bottom line is, cornets are great, and I think should be used a lot more. Mouthpieces are quite different to trumpet ones, and that's a whole other crazy space to be in, but I think the richness and warmer sound of a cornet really suits melodic playing far more than trumpets. For that reason, if you want a cornet, and have trumpets, then get a proper cornet, not these trumpets made to look like a cornet.

[delano]

Very good information from sd4f, real classy.
An important thing is what you are going to play on the cornet. The setup for a brassband is quite different than the one for trad jazz.

Also some adjustment tool on the first slide is important on a cornet. Ideal is the cornet with two triggers or one on the tuning slide.
New is always better than old at least for the mechanical aspects of the instrument.
And it's true that cornets are a bit out of fashion so it is possible to get good instruments for not too much money. But watch condition critically.

I agree about the Carol Brass and the Schagerl Gansch cornet though I suppose the last one is also a Carol Brass horn.

The Olds Special is certainly not a bad horn but it is a little bit a trumpetty cornetty.

For allround playing the Getzen cornets are great value and excellent players.
If you have the money the new Getzen 800DLX cornet seems to be a great option. I see the cornet as a solo instrument and own a Getzen Eterna 800 and it is an exceptional good player. But mr. Getzen is sure that the 800DLX is even much better (which I can't imagine but...)
Also the Yamaha pro cornets play extremely well.

For British brassband it's a different story. I have no knowledge but I hear quite often that they play mostly Besson and Yamaha Neo.

And take your time to find the right mouthpiece for your cornet. Short cornets with shepherd crook are best played with a short shank mouthpiece with reasonable deep cups. Denis Wick cornet mp's are more for British brassbands, I can't recommend them in general. The Yamaha E cup mouthpieces are quite good for solo work.

[kerouack]

Thank you. Yes , choosing a cornet mpc is not that easy. I play in small combo to have a warmer rounder sound than with a trumpet.
For me denis wick 3b is “too much” and Bach 3B, “ to little and too trumpetty”.
So I play a medium deep V shape mpc with 3,9 throat.

Problem is trying instruments, is imposible to try them in my country, even having so called “dealers”, but are shops without stock that don’t want to stock any pro Cornet, so…

Getzen is imposible to try here, but also a common brand like Yamaha.

[huntman10]

The Olds Special had several iterations with various characteristics. The greatest differences, IMHO, was the Nickel Bronze bell. The bell was made of nickel up to the flair, which was Bronze. That change came about in the later 50's. The older Specials had the standard brass bell. Models made before about 1953 ( I forget the exact year) had the wide Olds receiver that did not seat standard American cornet shanks. In the mid sixties or so, Specials got a nice mobile 3rd slide. By the 1970's, the Specials got their final change, nickel plated, and I believe with a brass bell again.

These had a wrap that we would consider more or less typical of cornets from the 50's, without the extra loop before going into the third cylinder, as the Bach Strad or Olds Ambassador had. Earlier Specials had an unusual wrap, with a pretty unique wrap with loops enclosed around the valveset, and I recall them having the 1st slide saddle design. I have not played one of these, but would love too.

All these cornets are quite American in their tonal spectrum. I have briefly tried the Nickel Bronze bell version with a Wick deep cup. It was a but darker, but not too my liking.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[p76]

With cornet it comes down to what you are doing with it. If it's Jazz or Concert Band, then yes an Olds Special is nice, if it's in good condition - likewise with Martin, the Recording and several of the Conn models are good too, again if they are in good condition. I've loved the Olds Recording cornets that I've played over the years, although I've never owned one.

If it comes to (British) Brass Banding with a cornet, then I would definitely say newer is better. The first decent Yamaha BBB cornet was the Maestro, but the Neo is much better and is IMHO the best value-for-money new BBB cornet out there today.

While the Besson 928 came about in the 1980s, I think the current crop of Sovereigns/Prestige have more consistent build quality - back in the 80s and 90s I played in a few good Brass Bands here in OZ, and had some Sovs that were amazing, and some that were...meh. Given the price asked for the old "Globe Stamp" Sovs, I'd look for a second-hand Yamaha Xeno...very equivalent cornet.

Having just said all that, one of the local Trad Jazz players here, who has played with the Golden City Seven and Steve Waddell's Creole Bells has always used the Besson Sovereign that he plays in Brass Band as well...

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[Untame]

[Untame]

[p76]

Hi Untame,

No wouldn't be getting a Wick for trad jazz. Quite a deep cup, which makes a pretty mellow sound - would be hard to light up I would have thought - the 4B I think is a deeper cup than the 4W you have.

Given you have the 4W I'm assuming you are OK with the DW rim, which for me is a deal-breaker - not rounded enough.

Check out the Curry website - his explanations of his cup sizes/depths was educational for me. I ended up with a BBC cup, for brassbanding.

The other thing I'd do is go onto Youtube and listen to some brass bands - good ones like Black Dyke, Cory and so on. That will give you a good idea of what a brass band mpc does.

My 2c anyway.

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[nieuwguyski]

I have a '62 Olds Recording cornet and have used it on combo gigs. I think it works well in that setting, getting a warm, round sound with what passes for a "deep" American-style long-shank mouthpiece (a Zottola 64A).
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[BudBix]

For British-style brass band I think a newer cornet made for that genre is a must, using a Wick mouthpiece or similar.

For jazz, the sky is the limit and the cornet you have is good enough if it works for you. Mouthpiece choice is up to you but I think a Wick is too deep for that style of music.

[Richard III]

[Untame]

I appreciate the tips on Curry. Looks like it is the only modern cornet mouthpiece designed with the early Conn shank taper. For my 80A Curry looks like the choice. In particular the VC series for vintage jazz.
_________________
I don't practice, and I never perform. I just play.
- 1979 King 602 Cornet
- 1927 Conn 80A Cornet
- 1960 Holton Super Collegiate Cornet

[huntman10]

WARNING: Long rambling exercise in giving unsolicited advice by an opinionated old f#rt with lots of experience and little regard for brevity. Proceed with caution!

Regarding mouthpiece selection for Trad Jazz on a vintage American style cornet, I have experimented for many years (so many experiments that they all kind of blur together) to find what mouthpieces work with my rather extensive (around 20 or so, the numbers change with my whims) of the "greatest cornets of the 40's, 50's, and 60's.

Traditional concert band, and Military Band scores (American and British Concert bands) traditionally gave the melody to the cornet sections and the martial fanfare style to the trumpets. This was true until about 40 years ago. I think the "unsexy" image of cornets eventually had more effect on changing the outlook for arrangers, although our concert band still has a cornet seciton with no cornets (unless I slip one in). And, as has been discussed on this forum, only in about the last 20 years or so, have the BBB standards made the dark and suppressed BBB cornet sound the "standard".

The Denis Wick BBB style mouthpieces, genrally, have deep cup, very large orifices, and short shanks. Yamaha makes a few short shank BBC style cups cornet 'pieces and the Wild Thing cornet and the Warburton Deep cup and BBB cups that sound very dark on my Olds Ambassador A6 BBB cornet (they made about 400 in the 70's) and my Getzen Eterna 800 cornet. The Warburton 2 piece cups can be fitted to a"standard" shank, as well.
As an aside, going back to the suggestions of great cornets at a reasonable price, my trumpet teacher from college still plays his Getzen Capri from the 60's (he is around 90), and he gets a very delicious dark tone (he did 50 years ago, too) from that Capri, with a 1C, I Think). If I was looking for a "do it all" cornet at a bargain. I would look for one of thise in good condition and grab it!

Back to mouthpieces, I do have a Wick 2CW that is very much atypical of what I just described, even having about 1/4" longer shank, shallow (between a Bach C or D) cup, and about a 20 orifice. Makes my Eterna 800 really "sparkle", nothing like the BBB sound. And very "nimble" for fast passages.

But plugging these super deep, large throated, short shank mouthpieces into the vintage American cornets does not seem to be optimal. The traditional American cornet has a vocal "core" to its sound, but with a bit of sparkle above. From the late 1920's until well into the 70's, cornets were expected to be agile and a little bright.

My favorite cornet mouthpieces actually depend on the task at hand. For "jazzier" parts, as well as running through some of the "barn burner" cornet solos like "Carnival of Venice", (mostly on my ML Strad 37) I like the Bach and Schilke C cups, and personally have used the early Elkhart (Corp, no period) 1 1/4 C since 1966 (it was new then).

To sit with the trumpet section, I use a 1 1/2 C from the same period. On my Olds (wide shank) Super and Super Recording, I have a customj Schilke 15B4. To get a little less "sparkle, the Bachs with no letter. Either a 1 or for guys who like a little tigher cup, the 6, which to me is shaped just like the 1 inside the cup, but a bit narrower. If I want a darker sound on the older Olds and Conns, I occasionally put the Warburton medium BBB cup on an approprioate shank for the horn. Even with that, the Super Recording cornet doesn't quite sound BBB. I can get close with the SR and a Parduba Flugelhorn mouthpiece (fits the OLds Wide cornet shake perfectly) with the ^7^ cup, though. helps to have a few hundred mouthpieces. (There, I said it!)

For me, I do make an exception for one American cornet, and use a Flip Oakes WT 1.5 or the traditional Conn Wonder (both very deep and short shank) with my 1920 Victor (pre 80A). I once had it at Concert band and the flugelhon player we had set to play didn't make it, so I played "Sounds of Silence" on the Victor cornet. The director loved the "flugelhorn" i was playing! It sounds just find with the 1 1/2C (yes, in tune iwth either shank) but the older design mouthpiece sounds so COOL!

Let me just say as I wrap up my cornet version of "War and Peace", that the brightest "Non Cornetty Cornet" I own is a Large Bore LeBlanc cornet, traditional wrap. It will curl paint at 50 yards with a 1 1/2C plugged in! Lotsa of stares from the trumpet section.

I encourage everyone who gets a chance to review OldSchoolEuph's (Ron Berndt's) biography of Vincent Bach, with an eye to Bach's having made his living as a cornet soloist before and just after arriving in the US, and then with an eye to Bach's own development of what became, in my opinion, anyway, the benchmark of the American cornet.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[p76]

Great post huntman10, very informative.

+1 for Getzen Capri cornet - I used to have one as my back-up, and regret selling it - a ripper little instrument.

I too have an Ambassador A6 (mine has the triggers too). Another great American cornet.

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

[giakara]