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Spit Ball and Flugelhorn?


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bpreusser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:04 pm    Post subject: Spit Ball and Flugelhorn? Reply with quote

Can you successfully blow a spit ball through a flugelhorn? I've been wary of trying it for fear that it may get stuck or not get all the way through the very large parts of the bell.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Spit Ball and Flugelhorn? Reply with quote

bpreusser wrote:
Can you successfully blow a spit ball through a flugelhorn? I've been wary of trying it for fear that it may get stuck or not get all the way through the very large parts of the bell.

I've used them on my Getzen 896 Eterna and Olds L-12 flugehorns.

Mike
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Blow-dry brass on my flugel after most times I play it. Biggest issues is making sure that I don't miss catching it coming out the bell.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bagmangood wrote:
I use Blow-dry brass on my flugel

Same here, and on my cornet as well. They pretty much never get stuck. I have used spitballs in the past too and those occasionally did get stuck on one of the many small bends in my cornet. Though maybe I used them incorrectly at the time, only used spitballs a few times before I switched to BdB.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest to use a brush for the leadpipe; rinse the tubing with water by pouring it into the bell. A spitball stuck in the tubing near the flugelhorn's third valve would be quite problematic to remove.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used spitball many times on my Yamaha 731 with no problem. I've also used it on my Selmer piccolo with no problem. My wife uses them on her french horn with no problem as well. I've heard people talking about getting them stuck, but I can't quite picture how that's possible. Perhaps a lack of imagination on my part.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both "Blow Dry" and "Spit Ball" products, both work fine on trumpets, cornets, and flugelhorns. My first "Blow Dry" kit came with the purchase of an Adams Flugelhorn.

The BIG key is that the valves MUST be either up or down all the way - part way between is when the sponge will get stuck.
And blow with some gusto - "through", not "into".
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Musechaser
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the BlowDry kit on my trumpets and flugel without any problem getting the foam plug blown through the horn, even blowing gently.

What I DO have a problem with is my valves freezing up, especially on the new Adams Sonic flugel. If I don't play it for a few days, even if I oil the valves immediately AFTER using the BlowDry and then putting the flugel in it's case, the valves freeze, almost to the point it's scary unsticking them... I had to have to use that much pressure. Only happens if I use the BlowDry (with 92% IPA).

Anyone else have the same experience? Bugs me so much that I stopped using it on my flugel, since I don't play it very day.
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MisterBighorn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musechaser wrote:

What I DO have a problem with is my valves freezing up, especially on the new Adams Sonic flugel. If I don't play it for a few days, even if I oil the valves immediately AFTER using the BlowDry and then putting the flugel in it's case, the valves freeze, almost to the point it's scary unsticking them... I had to have to use that much pressure. Only happens if I use the BlowDry (with 92% IPA).

Anyone else have the same experience? Bugs me so much that I stopped using it on my flugel, since I don't play it very day.


I owned an Adam's Sonic flugel last year. I grew to loathe that horn but had no problems using BlowDry Brass with it. It was the horrid intonation that made me want to scream.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always use Spit Balls when I clean all of my trumpets & flugels. Been using them for over 50 years (not the same ones - I've bought new)

Never any problem.

I push them down an inch or so into the receiver with a mpc brush so that there can be some blowing air pressure build-up to propel them thru the horns.

I wet them with warm water before I blow thru my horns.

I also throw away the liquid they come in. When I'm done cleaning horns, I rinse them with warm water, squeeze them dry, put them back in the jar. I keep the lid off overnight so they can dry thoroughly. Same jar will last years with that procedure.
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Musechaser
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterBighorn wrote:
...

I owned an Adam's Sonic flugel last year. I grew to loathe that horn but had no problems using BlowDry Brass with it. It was the horrid intonation that made me want to scream.


A little off topic, but that surprises me. Mine plays very well in tune; so well that the sax player I'm currently working with in an Afro-Cuban-inspired band remarked about that very quality at a rehearsal a few days ago. Perhaps you had a mouthpiece that didn't work well with your horn?
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MisterBighorn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musechaser wrote:
MisterBighorn wrote:
...

I owned an Adam's Sonic flugel last year. I grew to loathe that horn but had no problems using BlowDry Brass with it. It was the horrid intonation that made me want to scream.


A little off topic, but that surprises me. Mine plays very well in tune; so well that the sax player I'm currently working with in an Afro-Cuban-inspired band remarked about that very quality at a rehearsal a few days ago. Perhaps you had a mouthpiece that didn't work well with your horn?


I tried many mouthpieces with it. 1st-line E was so sharp, I had to play it with the third valve. 4th-line D was flat, and everything from low C on down was a mess as well. I sold the thing and pity the guy who bought it.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterBighorn wrote:
Musechaser wrote:
MisterBighorn wrote:
...

I owned an Adam's Sonic flugel last year. I grew to loathe that horn but had no problems using BlowDry Brass with it. It was the horrid intonation that made me want to scream.


A little off topic, but that surprises me. Mine plays very well in tune; so well that the sax player I'm currently working with in an Afro-Cuban-inspired band remarked about that very quality at a rehearsal a few days ago. Perhaps you had a mouthpiece that didn't work well with your horn?


I tried many mouthpieces with it. 1st-line E was so sharp, I had to play it with the third valve. 4th-line D was flat, and everything from low C on down was a mess as well. I sold the thing and pity the guy who bought it.


Once upon a time, I bought a very well sounding pocket trumpet that turned out to have a ca. 1/4" diameter cylindrical piece of gray foam lodged inside its tubing. This "spitball" (?) must have been inserted either: (a) at the factory; (b) by someone who was trying the instrument out, (c) someone cleaning the instrument after it was tried out; or (d) as a prank. Fortunately, the "spitball" did not get stuck between the piston and the casing. After removing the "spitball", the instrument played even better. How did it play with the spitball in place remains a mystery, but likely, the plugging of the tube was incomplete.
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bpreusser
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Always use Spit Balls when I clean all of my trumpets & flugels. Been using them for over 50 years (not the same ones - I've bought new)

Never any problem.

I push them down an inch or so into the receiver with a mpc brush so that there can be some blowing air pressure build-up to propel them thru the horns.

I wet them with warm water before I blow thru my horns.

I also throw away the liquid they come in. When I'm done cleaning horns, I rinse them with warm water, squeeze them dry, put them back in the jar. I keep the lid off overnight so they can dry thoroughly. Same jar will last years with that procedure.



I'm curious about discarding the liquid the spitballs come in. I use them on my trumpet and cornet and keep them in rubbing alcohol. I just squeeze out as much liquid as possible before blowing them through. I figure the alcohol will help get the water out of the tubing.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpreusser wrote:
I'm curious about discarding the liquid the spitballs come in. I use them on my trumpet and cornet and keep them in rubbing alcohol. I just squeeze out as much liquid as possible before blowing them through. I figure the alcohol will help get the water out of the tubing.

Like I said, I use, rinse & squeeze dry then leave the jar top off overnight so they dry completely. I soak them in water before reuse. Over 50 years using them like that.

I'm not a scientist but I have no idea why alcohol would or could help get water out of the tubing. For THAT I use a trumpet lead pipe swab...available thru....me.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
I'm not a scientist but I have no idea why alcohol would or could help get water out of the tubing.

According to the BlowDry Brass website, the alcohol is primarily used to make the bit more pliable and to ease its passage through the instrument. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the alcohol also took away a bit of moisture when it evaporated but I could be misremembering.

The main advantage of BdB over using a swab is that the bit travels through the entire instrument without it having to be taken apart. Instruments like flugels, where the leadpipe ends in the valve block, are much easier to ‘swab’ that way.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is true particularly for flugelhorns that have a "straight-through" alignment of all valves on the upstroke (repost of a Getzen flugel image from a post by Nonsense Eliminator in 2013):



Last edited by etc-etc on Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
trpthrld wrote:
I'm not a scientist but I have no idea why alcohol would or could help get water out of the tubing.

According to the BlowDry Brass website, the alcohol is primarily used to make the bit more pliable and to ease its passage through the instrument. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the alcohol also took away a bit of moisture when it evaporated but I could be misremembering.

The main advantage of BdB over using a swab is that the bit travels through the entire instrument without it having to be taken apart. Instruments like flugels, where the leadpipe ends in the valve block, are much easier to ‘swab’ that way.


When a spitball saturated by ethanol moves along the tube, ethanol and water on the walls mix, and are easily pushed out by the spitball due to reduced surface tension of the mixture vs that of water/spit alone.

In the remaining thin layer of the water-ethanol mixture, ethanol evaporates first, and water, last:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0017931003002679 wrote:
For binary water–ethanol mixtures, three stages corresponding to different wetting behaviours are identified. The evaporation rate measurement indicates that the more volatile component evaporates entirely in the first stage while in the last stage the less volatile component is dominantly evaporating. The behaviour of the wetting angle is correlated with the volume of the drop and the ethanol concentration. It was clearly demonstrated that at high ethanol concentration (75%) the wetting contact angle of the drop matches the behaviour of pure ethanol during the first stage and tends to follow the behaviour of pure water during the third stage. This suggests that, as the ethanol evaporates in the first stage it diffuses to the interface where it dictates the surface tension properties and hence the wetting contact angle. Towards the end of the droplet lifetime, the wetting contact angle jumps to join the behaviour of pure water.


Compared to "no spitball / no ethanol" case, there will be less water remaining on the walls after ethanol has evaporated, as the excess would have been removed by the spitball, and the remainder would have been diluted by the ethanol.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that’s quite thorough! Thanks for the explanation!
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of this has been posted previously.

A jar of Spit Balls...$10 give or take. Trumpet size you get 18 in a jar. Trombone size you get 15. Trombone is a couple of bucks more.

Blow Dry...$25 give or take and you get ONE.

I like the trombone size. Cut them in half and IMO they're the perfect size for trumpet, cornet, picc, flugel...you get the idea. All the years I've been using them, never even once has there been a problem with them not going all the way thru.

Spit Balls can be used wet (either in the solution in the jar or water), or dry. Trumpet Legend Buddy Childers used to blow a couple of dry spit balls thru his horns after every time he played (practice, rehearsal, performance).

They work GREAT to keep horn innards clear of mouth gunk & other stuff. All ya hafta do is tamp it in the receiver an inch or so so there's space to build a little bit of back pressure, then BLOW and unless there's something blocking their path, they'll sail thru your horn. Do do need to blow like you're blowing up a balloon at the start but if you're a trumpet player and can't do that...

Here's the part I really like - when you blow something thru your horn (air / spit ball / whatever), your breath has MOISTURE in it. Therefore, whatever a spit ball or blow dry might push in front of it, there will be breath moisture behind it that stays in your horn until it dries up.
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