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dwgib
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 2:23 pm    Post subject: Questions for trumpet repairmen Reply with quote

Hi,
I have a couple vintage trumpets that need repair, lead pipes in particular. I'm well aquainted with soldering, tube cutting, etc. My problem is these lead pipes had particular tapers when originally made, how do repairmen match those tapers? Or do they just install a modern leadpipe that may or may not have a different taper?

I also have at least one trumpet that has a missing post between the bell and lead pipe. It's a straight brace post (1930's Conn). It has the base on both sides, but not the post itself with sculpted ends. Is there a source for similar posts or does it need to be made from a piece of brass?

Last question, I have a couple horns missing the stop rod guides, usually the type with 2 diamond shaped ends that wrap the tube and the guide itself pretty much just a piece of brass with a hole for the rod or the whole piece is folded to make a guide hole with 2 diamond shaped wings to attach to the tube. Is there a source for these? Some are missing the rods also, but i think I can make those and I found a source for the nuts and rod end nut(when they have that)

Any and all help, suggestions, links, contacts appreciated. I'm really interested in the lead pipe replacement quandary bc I'd rather, if not outside my means, restore the horn to the original sound/play and different lead pipes would make a big difference on that, especially the Holton's, seems they changed the lead pipe taper for every horn, not sure about others because I've not seen data on them.
If too expensive to duplicate originals, I guess I'll have to settle for what replacements are available, no sense spending $500 on a horn that only worth $300.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe find inexpensive donor/parts horns for some?
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Maybe find inexpensive donor/parts horns for some?


Yeah, I've bought some for that reason, but don't find many of the age, ruined enough to cannibalize, or cheap enough.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some techs have stashes that they can scavenge parts from. Someone might offer to assist.

Also over the years Allied has been mentioned on here as a resource.
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gord-o
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's rare for me to work on a horn that people really care about matching tapers, vintage specs, so take my words with a grain of salt. I deal with parents who are more concerned with the repair bill. If I had to replace a vintage leadpipe I start with the generic Allied pipe, get the receiver to fit with a gap that is good with the mouthpiece that came with the trumpet, then cut the length. Old Conns are different, no gap. Small bore horns are hard to match.

The post between the braces is just a brass rod, available from the hardware store.

The last question, you would need a donor horn.
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jeirvine
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are techs that can clone the original lead pipe, but that may be more than you'd want to spend. Charlie Melk replaced a 30's Olds leadpipe in raw brass for me for $275.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeirvine wrote:
There are techs that can clone the original lead pipe, but that may be more than you'd want to spend. Charlie Melk replaced a 30's Olds leadpipe in raw brass for me for $275.


Wow, that price is what I was afraid of, and yet, you ended up with a horn that played as it did in the 30's. I'm not totally sure, as I'm no expert by far, how much the lead pipe changes the sound or the way it plays, but have to think that it does quite a bit or there would not have been so many changes of material type, style, taper as there were throughout the years, Especially Holton, who even named their models based on leadpipe and bell design. Unknown is how many changes other companies may have made without any public knowledge or documentation. One of the reasons I was aghast when I've read, on a couple of companies that were taken over in the 70's, that the new owners threw out not only documentation of serials, but design drawings and such. Just can't wrap my mind around people doing that, especially, I'm sure it was a storage thing, they could've offered it to many a museum, university, or even private individuals, who'd have gladly taken it for free.
Anyway, I digress, but loss of knowledge of the past is a terrible thing to me.

I wonder if companies like Allied carry more than one type "generic" leadpipe? I'd have to think, if i were to spend that much on a replacement and couldn't get the original, I'd try to get one of these specialist designed leadpipes. I'm too new to all this to know of, I would assume several, designers selling their signature design, much like mouthpieces I would assume.

I guess I'll have to steer clear of any horns with lead pipe damage. I have 2 now, I may try to salvage them with soldering and sanding, they're both silver, so I guess replating would cover if I'm able to do it. My biggest worry on that is if solder gets inside the tube it'd be hard to tell. I've thought I could prevent that by filling the tube with something first, like maybe wet sand.
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jeirvine
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least for Olds there are some techs that specialize in refurbishing and restoring older horns (e.g. Rob Stewart, Melk), and they have the specs of the various pipes, and know either how to make new, or know which replacements are comparable. But my (not first hand) understanding is that it is fairly easy to test fit a leadpipe and try it out without fully installing it.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
[

I wonder if companies like Allied carry more than one type "generic" leadpipe? I'd have to think, if i were to spend that much on a replacement and couldn't get the original, I'd try to get one of these specialist designed leadpipes. I'm too new to all this to know of, I would assume several, designers selling their signature design, much like mouthpieces I would assume.


Allied only has one generic pipe, and it is suggested as the replacement for many brands, Olds included, as there are no parts available for them anymore.

Unless the model is popular, I doubt many people supplying aftermarket leadpipes use exact copies. It isn't cheap to measure, accurately make a mandrel, and then draw a pipe and install it, unless the customer has deep pockets.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:

Unless the model is popular, I doubt many people supplying aftermarket leadpipes use exact copies. It isn't cheap to measure, accurately make a mandrel, and then draw a pipe and install it, unless the customer has deep pockets.


I understand that, I just meant I believe there are still several custom shops that have their own lead pipe designs they sell and install, similar to several I've read making their own mouthpiece designs. So, I think for all the cost of replacing a leadpipe on a vintage horn, like say my 1924 Martin Dansant that needs one, and I couldn't find a donor (and let's face it, a trumpet bad enough condition to be a donor likely wouldn't have a very well preserved leadpipe anyway) I'd go with replacing it with a better one from one of the custom makers rather than use a generic one. Might as well make the horn possibly better if you can't make it original.

Would be nice to have the luxury of seeing what difference it might make. That would be an interesting test for some brass restorer to do a youtube video on, compare the generic Allied pipe to a couple custom ones on a vintage horn.
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Holton Military 48('51)
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
. . . I'd go with replacing it with a better one from one of the custom makers rather than use a generic one.

And that will cost you north of $200, not including installation and refinishing (lacquer or plating).

Charlie Melk doesn't list the prices for the aftermarket leadpipes he sells on his website, but Pickett/Blackburn does. The ones they sell (designed to improve Bach Strads or Yamaha Xenos) go for $215. When jeirvine said that "Charlie Melk replaced a 30's Olds leadpipe in raw brass for me for $275", I don't think that Charlie literally "cloned" the leadpipe; he probably found a close match from among the leadpipes he stocks and installed that.

gord-o wrote:
If I had to replace a vintage leadpipe I start with the generic Allied pipe, get the receiver to fit with a gap that is good with the mouthpiece that came with the trumpet, then cut the length.

How much would that cost, gord-o? I suspect that the generic Allied pipe costs at least $150 (I could be wrong).

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
Unless the model is popular, I doubt many people supplying aftermarket leadpipes use exact copies. It isn't cheap to measure, accurately make a mandrel, and then draw a pipe and install it, unless the customer has deep pockets.

This is very true. If you want to get a ballpark price on this, contact a place like M/K Drawing and ask them what they would charge to do what Divitt Trumpets describes. Make sure that they understand that you want to reverse engineer and make a copy of a leadpipe that no one currently supplies. I am pretty sure the figure they quote will be over $500, and I wouldn't be surprised if it went over $1000 (again, I could be wrong, but the way to find out is to ask a supplier).

dwgib wrote:
Would be nice to have the luxury of seeing what difference it might make.

Some suppliers would be willing to send you a leadpipe or two (with receivers attached) on approval. You can tape the new leadpipe right next to the one on the horn and stick the top end of the main tuning slide into it. Then you can insert your mouthpiece into the new receiver and see how the horn plays.

Long story short, whether you pay to install the generic Allied leadpipe or an aftermarket pipe available through a tech, I'm pretty sure you are looking at a 'three-figure' price tag.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
I'd go with replacing it with a better one from one of the custom makers rather than use a generic one. Might as well make the horn possibly better if you can't make it original.


Just because it's called a generic pipe doesn't mean it's a bad pipe. It's generic because it works with many instruments, and isn't some extreme taper design.
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gord-o
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't bought the Allied generic pipe in a while, but I would guess it sells for about $60 now. Like Divitt Trumpets said, it isn't a bad lead pipe, it's not extreme, it works with a lot of different horns. It's a long lead pipe, so you can get the Venturi size right and expand the large end if you need to make it fit to outer tuning slide tube. I think that Badger State repair sells some some different lead pipe tubes, and I think they are made by M/K Drawing And Bending.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, lots of good thoughts. If the price for that Allied generic really is that low at $60, that makes a big difference vs $215+ just for the part and an acceptable replacement vs cost/benefit. The 2 trumpets I currently need to replace the leadpipe on both are just a short section of tubing between the mouthpiece receiver and a tuning slide receiver. So short (5" or so) that I at first considered replacing it with just a short piece of tubing, but was worried about how that would affect it's play.

I wish the websites for Allied and https://badgerstatesupply.com/index.php?pg=catalog allowed you to look at their catalogs. Never understood why companies do that. Badger doesn't even have a sign up page, just a log in, and Allied requires a sales tax id number just to sign up.
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:


I wish the websites for Allied and https://badgerstatesupply.com/index.php?pg=catalog allowed you to look at their catalogs. Never understood why companies do that. Badger doesn't even have a sign up page, just a log in, and Allied requires a sales tax id number just to sign up.


They are Business to business companies that sell at wholesale prices. They aren't for the use of the general public. They exist in every industry. There are even ones that you can't find on Google that supply the music repair industry that prefer to only be known by those who need to know.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
dwgib wrote:


I wish the websites for Allied and https://badgerstatesupply.com/index.php?pg=catalog allowed you to look at their catalogs. Never understood why companies do that. Badger doesn't even have a sign up page, just a log in, and Allied requires a sales tax id number just to sign up.


They are Business to business companies that sell at wholesale prices. They aren't for the use of the general public. They exist in every industry. There are even ones that you can't find on Google that supply the music repair industry that prefer to only be known by those who need to know.


Oh, i understand what they are, but still think it's a discriminatory practice that's meant to keep prices high to the consumer, and by their nature stop people like me from not only from learning new craftsmanship, but from being self sufficient. Part of the reason no body fixes anything anymore, they just throw it out and buy a new one because no one can afford to repair stuff, or the repair costs so much, nothing is worth fixing. I watched my father's business go down the drain because of just that, blacksmith,welding, fabrication, & small engine repair shop. Cheaper to buy new than to repair, can't tell you how many lawn mowers and chainsaws that were just left there every year and he couldn't survive on the small amount of welding and fabrication work. Went out of business in 2005 after 120 years.
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important for us all to accept that there's nothing practical about this type of endeavor. It's a labor of love. There's no rational way to justify the cost because it would almost always outweigh the monetary value. I only say this because money is a factor in the decision making process and everyone has a different appetite or opinion on what things are "worth." A big part of the value in the process is the enjoyment of the work and the satisfaction with the completed product. So, if "the right part" costs more than the horn is "worth" it shouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
I think it's important for us all to accept that there's nothing practical about this type of endeavor. It's a labor of love. There's no rational way to justify the cost because it would almost always outweigh the monetary value. I only say this because money is a factor in the decision making process and everyone has a different appetite or opinion on what things are "worth." A big part of the value in the process is the enjoyment of the work and the satisfaction with the completed product. So, if "the right part" costs more than the horn is "worth" it shouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker.


That's absolutely true. I do it and want to do it, because I like fixing things rather than buying new. There's always a cost factor, but is it manageable vs the value of the item, not only resale wise, but just retaining the history/beauty is a factor to me. And, for myself, my upbringing plays a part, as I was brought up with a father and a stepfather who never thought anything was unfixable unless it was totally trashed, and even then they were likely to save the metal or parts, just in case. Also to me is the challenge and fulfillment of the finished, working item. Just irritating when i know i can do it for a cost effective way, but am denied access to parts, I know are available, that I don't have the means to make myself, just because I'm not doing it for profit. Matter of fact, my plan is to give most of my trumpets away to kids that can't afford one. Haven't yet decided how to do that without falling prey to those that would appreciate them and not just accept them just to turn around and sell them. Need to connect with some local band teachers.

Oh well, way of the world these days.
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Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can always buy from public facing companies like mouthpiece express or Dawkes.

Anyone who buys quality products is ok to repair them. It's the people trying to pay as little as possible and getting new trumpets for $50 who prefer to just buy another.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
I wish the websites for Allied and https://badgerstatesupply.com/index.php?pg=catalog allowed you to look at their catalogs. Never understood why companies do that. Badger doesn't even have a sign up page, just a log in, and Allied requires a sales tax id number just to sign up.

Besides buying parts from public facing companies as Divitt Trumpets suggests, you can always form a relationship with a good local tech and ask them to look for parts for you on the "pros only" sites. They would probably be willing to sell you the parts at cost or for a nominal markup if you are trying to install them yourself.
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