Internal differences between the Xeno and Neo Cornet

[Louise Finch]

Hi all

I've just bought myself an as new Neo to replace my old and tired Xeno (both are the same configuration, yellow brass bell in lacquer). The two cornets look identical down to the last trigger screw, except for the Neo having a gold brass lead pipe, tuning slide crook, and crook where the tuning slide enters the third valve. I haven't sat down and actually compared the two, but I know pretty much what my Xeno looks like after having played it daily for over nine years (it was used when I bought it). Apart from the introduction of the gold brass, I'd say that visually they are identical.

However I feel that the Neo plays and sounds more open, and this has translated to better endurance.

I no longer have any photo hosting software, so cannot easily show you what I mean, but if you look at the photo on the following link, you will see a metal loop which the main waterkey would presumably push back against. Rather than a loop, this is actually two upside down L shapes, that almost join in the middle to make a rectangle. I presume that these are shaped from the ends of the water key springs. My Xeno has one side missing (I have no idea how or when), the water key spring has slightly less tension, and the cork is not probably not that great. I wonder whether I have a slight water key leak, which would explain the difference in playability, as I've been feeling for sometime that there is some slight leak somewhere in my Xeno. Also, my Xeno's 1st slide trigger seems to vibrate a bit, whereas the Neo one is firm. I've obviously checked that the screws on the Xeno are not lose. They are however not over tight either. I don't want to fiddle with the Neo ones, as that is playing so well, so maybe they should be tighter.

https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/yamaha-ycr8335s-neo-neo-bb-cornet

I bought my Xeno used for a reasonable price with a few bell bow dents, and it unexplicably gained a few more around five years ago. I can only concur that somebody must have knocked it over when I left my cornet temporarily unattended on its cornet stand (I don't do that with my Neo). I had played it on two consecutive rehearsals in different bands before I noticed it, and although I tactfully asked, nobody ever owned up. I also managed to kick it over myself a month or so ago in the band room, after tripping on the way back from the photocopier owing to being less sure footed because of having had toe surgery. It took me half hour to find the extra dent.

I have a feeling that the only difference may be that my Xeno could do with a bit of work, but people do say that the Neo has a better upper register. Are there any actual known differences which would explain this, other than a change of material?

Actually, I have just thought of one other difference. The main water key chimney is taller on the Neo than Xeno, like it is taller on the Xeno II trumpet than the original Xeno. I have no idea what difference this makes, only that the Xeno II trumpet is in my opinion overal significantly different to the original Xeno, which was a lot more like the 6335HII. I wasn't very sure what the differences were between the 6335HII and original Xeno, and I'm feeling the same between the Xeno and Neo cornets.

I'm however very pleased with the Neo, even if the main difference is it simply being in better playing condition.

What please are your thoughts?

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[GordonH]

I was told it was the same instrument apart from the materials difference. However, Yamaha have been playing around with different venturi for their trumpet leadpipes. It would not surprise me if they went to a larger venturi on the Neo which would explain it feeling freer blowing.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Louise Finch]

[GordonH]

You can measure the venturii using a pencil (sharpened end).
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Louise Finch]

[GordonH]

I have a tool for doing it. Its conical like a pencil end. I paint it with a black marker pen, push it in and rotate it. That makes a line. You could do that with ap encil but make a little groove. Then use the same pencil on the other instrument and see which is bigger.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Louise Finch]

[areciboy]

I actually went to a youth brass band camp in 2019 conducted by David King, who consulted for Yamaha in designing those horns. I had a conversation with him about them and he said Yamaha changed the alloy used for the leadpipe because of red rot susceptibility... maybe for other reasons too. He preferred the original Xeno design, said it had a rounder/darker sound, and I gotta say I agree. All the Xeno cornets I've tried are just really good, solid horns. I don't have any experience with the Neo to speak of but have heard really good things.

[Louise Finch]

[GordonH]

I know someone who has had two replacement leadpipes on a Xeno, having never experienced any rot in a lifetime of playing. She is in her late 50s.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

I asked both Yamaha Europe (via their website enquiry form), and Yamaha Music London (a big Yamaha store in London), the difference between the Xeno and Neo cornets, specifically whether there were any other differences than the gold brass lead pipe, tuning slide crook, and crook where the tuning slide enters the 3rd valve, and taller main water key chimney.

I’m still waiting to hear back from Yamaha Europe, but Yamaha Music London say:

Dear Louise,

Thank you for your email and we are sorry for the delay in replying. These are the only differences in the 2 cornets. I think the Neo has a warmer sound, personally, due to the gold brass addition, but there are no other differences, as far as we are aware.

Yours sincerely
David

Yamaha Music London
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

I agree that the Neo has a warmer sound. I could immediately hear it. Even though I feel that my Neo plays and sounds more open, I suspected that it is just that my Neo is in better playing condition, and it turns out that they are internally identical.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[RandyTX]

Louise, thank you for the information on the Neo cornet. You mention buying your Neo used, I believe. Did yours come with the Neo case provided by Yamaha? If so, I'm curious what sort of room there is inside the case for mutes, or does it require a separate bag for those?
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[Louise Finch]

[Halflip]

[RandyTX]

Louise, you made some interesting comments on the case. I mainly asked simply because I feel like I need 3 different gig bags lately.

I was hoping to just use the stock case for Brass Band, since it's basically the only time I use a cornet out and about anymore with only rare exceptions.

I have a Coyote 2.5 for orchestra mainly, that can take two full size trumpets (usually a C and a Bb) along with a picc, with an attached external mute bag and it's very protective of the horns inside.

For commercial or big band stuff, I usually have a different Bb and flugel in a cronkhite style triple, with plenty of room for mutes and other gear inside it.

As far as music goes, I've pretty much moved to keep everything on an ipad now, so storage for that isn't such an issue anymore.

Meanwhile, back to the Neo cornet itself...

I have learned that it comes a few different ways, lacquer or silver plate the main options, but also either finish can be combined with either a yellow brass or a gold brass bell. Yamaha's literature says the latter is a special order thing, so not as common, but some dealers, like Thomann in Germany, have it in stock, but refuse to ship it to the US for some reason, citing Yamaha wants it that way, even though the Neo is available from US dealers (when you can find it in stock).

I assume yours has the yellow brass bell, since you only talk about different brass alloy materials for the leadpipe. I'm curious if you, or anyone you have played with in a brass band setting has tried the gold brass bell version? If so, your thoughts on playing or sonic differences?
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Hi again RandyTX

As a caveat, I naturally have a warmer sound. Other players have played my cornet and mouthpiece combination, and sounded brighter on it, some considerably brighter. Maybe it is just my personal experience from the limited number of players I have played together with at any one time, but as a generality, I personally feel that female players tend to have less bright sounds. Maybe I’m wrong in this regard.

Anyway, I’ve tried three of the four Xeno cornet combinations, as all four combinations of the Xeno and now Neo, were/are readily available in the UK.

I started off by comparing the yellow brass bell in silver-plate to the gold brass bell in silver-plate.

With me on the end, I felt that the yellow brass bell was pure, bright and clear, but maybe just that little bit bright for British Brass Band cornet playing. I however still preferred my sound on the yellow brass bell to the gold brass bell, which although warmer, sounded a little duller in my hands.

The goldilocks for me was the yellow brass bell model in lacquer. The same pure, bright and clear sound, but with just the edge of the brightness rounded off. I love my sound on this model.

My Xeno II trumpet and Neo cornet are also yellow brass belled models in lacquer. I haven’t tried the other combinations for either of these.

I hope that this will help.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs