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BreakFromTheHerd Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2022 Posts: 138
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:00 am Post subject: The "Dime" trick |
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My horn slots a little "loose," which means it isn't great for technical etudes but works quite well for small group jazz. Bending notes is easy.
In an attempt to tighten the slotting—or at least my perception of the slotting—I dropped a U.S. dime into my third valve's bottom cap. A player on YouTube had recommended this trick.
Well, the horn indeed tightened up. Too much, actually. The upper register was choked off to such a degree that it ruined the horn.
I promptly removed the dime.
It's crazy how the addition of something so small can completely wreck a trumpet. I guess it must work on some horns, but it sure didn't on mine. |
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Gonzalez Veteran Member
Joined: 09 May 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:08 am Post subject: |
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It’s the same with heavy caps, that looks cool, but really change the playability of the horn!
Take a look at this gadget! It works the same way, to tighten up the horn, but you can move it around and find the sweet spot 😊
https://www.thomann.de/gb/martin_seibold_tone_stability_enhancer_tse_1.htm _________________ Van Laar OIRAM light I
Van Laar OIRAM Ack
Bájoc mouthpieces Lead and Pops |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:17 am Post subject: |
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You could try a pre 1964 dime. They were made out of 90% silver. |
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ericmpena Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2021 Posts: 262 Location: Kyle, TX
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I prefer tighter slotting, so I usually go with heavier trim options.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a company sell bottom cap washers/weights. Can’t remember where from though. _________________ Thane Performing Artist
www.youtube.com/ericmpena
https://thanetrumpets.com/ |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Try the dime in the first valve bottom cap. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I use one of these on my tenor horn. Works well for me for slotting in the upper range. YMMV. Strong refund policy.
https://www.heavybottomcaps.co.uk/ |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 724 Location: California
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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You can also try a very small amount of tuning slide grease on the threads of your valve caps. I use heavy slide grease (Hetman or Ultra-Pure). Don’t know why it works but I like the result. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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You might try a washer of the same diameter instead. Apparently some have noticed a difference based on the size of the washer hole.
I use a silver dime with a hole drilled in it. For me - just right.
Next variation is a large O ring in the bottom of the valve cap followed by the washer - screwed down.
Possibly a Bach Tone Ring - never tried it.
Then of course there is just the O ring at the top of the threads with the cap screwed down tight against the O ring. |
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JHirakawa Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2022 Posts: 155
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:58 am Post subject: |
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My Kanstul French Besson Classic came with a set of heavy bottom caps. I use one on the 3rd valve once and a while. Using two or three caps changes the horn too much. I got a set of brass washers at my local ACE Hardware to try with my Benge and Holton trumpets. They cost pennies each. Just take a valve cap to an ACE and you should be find some that fit in no time.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brass_washers_in_trumpet_bottom_valve_caps.jpg _________________ Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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kurth83 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2021 Posts: 73
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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So is there a trick to go the other way, to loosen the slots on a too-tight trumpet, like removing the 3rd valve cap? |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience, lighter weight instruments respond less positively to weighted caps and such. Even my 72* ML with a standard leadpipe did not care for the added weight of heavy caps. But, I have other standard weight Bach trumpet, and have had great response and success when I space the weighted cap with an O-ring. Change the o-rings periodically for optimal response.
Now, this same trick has never helped a Schilke Bb or C for me. Schilke weighted caps helped my E3L, again spaced with o-rings. My Yamaha C trumpet has a stainless nut, held by superglue, in the third valve cap, also spacing the cap with an O-ring, with great positive effects.
CCaps are too much for all of my horns, but honestly, that is my preference. I like the Bach caps, like the Schilke caps, but the well made but heavier caps are not in agreement with my playing.
Never be afraid to experiment. You might find something you might not. But, the price of admission to this experiment is certainly reasonable, and recoverable if you decide it doesn't work for you.
Just my opinion...happy to suggest more if it is wanted.
Al _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1140 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2023 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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kurth83 wrote: | So is there a trick to go the other way, to loosen the slots on a too-tight trumpet, like removing the 3rd valve cap? |
If you have standard (lever) waterways, loosen the screw on the tuning slide water key a 1/4 of a turn at a time. Grab your pinky hook and give it a very gentle, slight pull upward (not enough to bend the hook). Your horn will respond differently after doing those things.
Also, take out your 2nd valve slide and reinsert it backwards/upside down. Your horn will play differently. _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
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dwgib Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023 Posts: 280
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting stuff I never knew, but wondered about when seeing the valve cap kits the site referenced above https://www.heavybottomcaps.co.uk/tom-hutchinson-abcs explains some of it. Maybe that's why someone I ran into on here didn't care much for the 1960's Conn 15B Director, yet I love my Conn 14B Director and it plays, to me, and I'm certainly not at most on this site's level, nearly as well as my 1940 22B NYS. The main difference between the 14B and the 15B is the size and weight of the valve caps and angle struts vs straight struts. Could just the difference in the valve caps between the 2 identical horns be the difference/ I guess it's all subject to the player's skill and play style preferences. _________________ Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I was a skeptic about cap weights for a long time.
I have a 1947 Old Super that I loved to look at but never played. It vibrated in my hand.
Added dimes and then Harrelson caps, and it became a different horn. Now the vibration goes out the bell and it is my daily player. This after 10 years in a case.
Go figure. |
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dwgib Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023 Posts: 280
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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starkadder wrote: | I was a skeptic about cap weights for a long time.
I have a 1947 Old Super that I loved to look at but never played. It vibrated in my hand.
Added dimes and then Harrelson caps, and it became a different horn. Now the vibration goes out the bell and it is my daily player. This after 10 years in a case.
Go figure. |
Wow, now I'll have to experiment with some of my old horns. I know that I've found in the process of the 20 or so I've bought this year when I started collecting, I also collected with them, partly bc I looked at them as an addition to value I was paying, a multitude of mouthpieces. Many of which are old specialty mouthpieces as well as old Conn's, Olds, Holton, every Bach and Blessing size imaginable. And I've found, by experimenting that certain ones are better on certain horns, which, to me as really a novice that mostly played with a Bach 7c, was quite a surprise.
Now I'll have to try one of those adaptable kits, or dimes or washers to start maybe, because I'm sure that all the trumpets don't have the same size caps.
Are all the kits just bottom caps or do they replace top and bottom? _________________ Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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I tried the dime trick a few years ago in my Getzen 700 Eterna trumpet and Capri cornet. It definitely affected the response and the sound. Can't say if it was better or worse, just different.
Other tricks are to tighten/loosen the water key nut and see how it affects the response in horns with traditional water keys. I tried that on my Bach and it affected the response--the looser the nut, the more quickly it responded, with looser slots. Of course we can't be having our water keys fall off, so it's not something I've done other than as an experiment.
It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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dwgib Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023 Posts: 280
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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spitvalve wrote: |
It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows. |
Yeah, it is. When I think about all the horns I've looked at and the changes on same models in things like the type of braces, angle of the 2nd valve slide, bottom springs vs top springs vs internal top springs, and even placement of the water key on the slide, or some earlier ones that didn't have a water key on the third slide. Amazing how all those things must affect how a horn plays if just loosening a water key, or putting a dime in one valve, or heavier/lighter valve caps, can change it's play that much. I was just looking at Holton 45's, because I bid and won a 1947 one on eBay tonight, and i noticed they had a regular and a deluxe, the regular has a totally round tuning slide no brace and z type bell braces, the deluxe has a 2 bend tuning slide and a brace on it and strut type bell braces, so you have to imagine they would play very differently from each other, yet the same model. _________________ Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:52 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | Try the dime in the first valve bottom cap. |
This made my Bach 72R respond even better. Thanks, Shofarguy! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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JHirakawa Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2022 Posts: 155
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:18 am Post subject: |
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dwgib wrote: | spitvalve wrote: |
It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows. |
Yeah, it is. When I think about all the horns I've looked at and the changes on same models in things like the type of braces, angle of the 2nd valve slide, bottom springs vs top springs vs internal top springs, and even placement of the water key on the slide, or some earlier ones that didn't have a water key on the third slide. Amazing how all those things must affect how a horn plays if just loosening a water key, or putting a dime in one valve, or heavier/lighter valve caps, can change it's play that much. I was just looking at Holton 45's, because I bid and won a 1947 one on eBay tonight, and i noticed they had a regular and a deluxe, the regular has a totally round tuning slide no brace and z type bell braces, the deluxe has a 2 bend tuning slide and a brace on it and strut type bell braces, so you have to imagine they would play very differently from each other, yet the same model. |
Congratulations on the 1947 Holton. I have a 1947 Holton Model 48. The 48's also came in two versions, regular and deluxe. I have a regular model 48 with a reverse tuning slide and no brace. It's a rare medium bore 48. I got it last fall for less than $300. It was in great shape other than wore lacquer in the usual places. It even came with both nuts and the washer for the 3rd valve slide stop. I tried it with washers in the bottom valve caps when I first got it. I'll have to try the washers again now that I've had the horn for a while. I am somewhat reluctant to change anything on a vintage horn. Prefer to play them like they were designed to be played. Especially the Benge. The Holton valves are on the left side of the photo. The Benge valves are on the right. Both horns came with amazing valves. They must have been replated at some time. I just cleaned the valves with Dawn before I took the photo.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg _________________ Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles |
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dwgib Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023 Posts: 280
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:15 am Post subject: |
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JHirakawa wrote: |
Congratulations on the 1947 Holton. I have a 1947 Holton Model 48. The 48's also came in two versions, regular and deluxe. I have a regular model 48 with a reverse tuning slide and no brace. It's a rare medium bore 48. I got it last fall for less than $300. It was in great shape other than wore lacquer in the usual places. It even came with both nuts and the washer for the 3rd valve slide stop. I tried it with washers in the bottom valve caps when I first got it. I'll have to try the washers again now that I've had the horn for a while. I am somewhat reluctant to change anything on a vintage horn. Prefer to play them like they were designed to be played. Especially the Benge. The Holton valves are on the left side of the photo. The Benge valves are on the right. Both horns came with amazing valves. They must have been replated at some time. I just cleaned the valves with Dawn before I took the photo.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg |
Thanks, yours is in better shape than the 45 I got. The 45 I got looks as if maybe someone stripped everything but the valve block at one time, either that or it's had a lot of wear, which might be, bc valve block is only thing shiny and bell engraving very worn. Key think is all slides move and no dents I could see anywhere. Mine has only the stop rod end cap, but not too big a deal, and the valves look in great shape. I can't complain for $110 total. Looks bad, but should play fine. I may strip and lacquer it myself. Valves on your two look the same. There was something on https://trumpet-history.com/Holton%20Models.pdf that said they went to french valves in the 50's but the 48 stayed the same.
Anyway, I'll be trying the dime or a brass washer trick on my horns just to see, but yeah, no permanent mods. _________________ Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
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