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Why not talk about technique?


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cliffardo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:28 am    Post subject: Why not talk about technique? Reply with quote

I have been lurking through the forums for a couple of months as I return to the trumpet. I have noticed at least two camps regarding technique:

1) Don't talk about technique, talk about sound; talking about technique will ruin a developing trumpet player.

2) Talk about technique, for without a firm foundation, we will run into problems in the future. (I am trying to imagine a piano teacher saying 'just focus on making a nice sound' and not talk about technique...).

So, for those of you who are professionals and teachers, and especially those who play in top tier organisations (those of you who may be on here), I'd be curious to hear what you have to say about this debate?

Thank you.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, there's no need in spending time answering your question if it's not what you're asking for, so would you please qualify what "those who play in top tier organisations" means?
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Why not talk about technique? Reply with quote

My history as a top tier perpetual problem student might qualify me to be allowed to answer, but if it doesn't feel free to ignore me.

My take on the 'debate' is that it's not just a matter of how it is taught, but also who is being taught. Some students respond better to knowing the finer details or a strict set of instructions, where others can suffer from analysis paralysis or detreminal over-focus on specific aspects of playing. And a great many more might benefit from a mix of both methods, in varying degrees and moments of application during their trumpet playing career.

Essentially, seeing this a debate with 'sides' that are universally appliccable and mutually exclusive is a bit too simplistic, imho.
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Nathan.Sobieralski
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand both approaches. Things that come naturally for some students do not come naturally for others. Some students need, for example, the coordination between tongue and fingers to be spelled out, and some do it innately. There is no one size fits all in this endeavor. As teachers, it's our job to assess strengths and weaknesses and prescribe appropriate remedies.

Im sure similar sentiment has been expressed here before.
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chrisf3000
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to step out here and say why not a combination of both? There's right-brain and left-brain thinking. Some students (or players) respond to a demonstration, some to instruction, and some to a combination of both.

Why not demonstrate and then explain what you did? Or explain what you're going to do and then demonstrate why or why not something works, or doesn't work? There's various possibilities and degrees of each - finding what works for each student is what makes great teachers great.
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t personally know any other professional teachers or players that talk exclusively about sound, at least in the context of what I believe you are asking.

But in my opinion, when people talk about technique, they are really talking about some kind of “chop building,” and I just don’t see that work out very well for my students (or me). More often I have seen development come from keeping lip engagement minimal, letting them respond to the air and an internal sound concept, and then continuing to lean on and trust that concept and the flow, and divest from squeezing, pinching, or cutting the air in the innumerable ways we do. This is not always the quickest solution, because there are other ways to make the trumpet work in the short term, but in my experience this one is the most consistent and provides the most longitudinal improvement. There are obviously some tricks and subtleties beyond song and wind, but our internal musician guides us through those.

How we open the door to this concept is an entirely different matter, though. Usually a little at a time… sometimes through the door of “technicality” or “chops.” Gotta speak a language they understand.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By "technique," do you mean the process of sound production, or technical skills? If the latter, I don't see how one can avoid talking about both.

If the former, it depends on what one's needs are. As a general matter, I find it beneficial to let sound be the guide. That said, some can listen to a great sound all day, every day and not be able to replicate it. They need help figuring out how to produce a full sound.
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That said, some can listen to a great sound all day, every day and not be able to replicate it. They need help figuring out how to produce a full sound


I have been one of those people for years.

Whenever a teacher would tell me things like "listen and repeat", I would always think: this man thinks that if I could play with that quality of tone, I would be here spending my time and money on his lessons...".
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray Crisara taught me in almost exclusively musical terms. He once called some notes in a passage that skipped around “belly button” notes, but otherwise he just gave me musical instructions — dynamics, articulation, notes to focus on, etc. There was zero discussion of the lips, tongue, air, or even sound really. He only occasionally played for me to demonstrate — only when I really wasn’t getting it. We didn’t sing, or buzz anything; just worked out of Arban, played lots of etudes, and dealt with everything as musicians, not trumpet players.

I came to him as a severely broken trumpet player — regular lip pain when I played and by far the weakest among my peers. Everything was a mess. I sounded bad, had a limited range, and it hurt to play. If anyone needed direct physical instruction it was me. I left with the foundation for a productive playing career. His teaching took me places I would have never imagined. He didn’t seem dogmatic about his focus. To him it just seemed more practical and reliable.

It was a common experience among his students to work on their etudes through the week, but still have a few passages that seemed impossible come lesson time. Somehow during the lesson, just by fixing the musical idea, the impossible would suddenly become easy. It seemed like magic, but he’d just say that “good music plays better” and move on to something harder.

My own teaching sits more in the middle, although with a lean to the music and sound focus, but I sometimes wonder what would happen if I fully embraced the music only approach of my youth.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:47 pm    Post subject: technique Reply with quote

Hello all,
Allen Vizzuti...
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non-pro views ...

My preference is to address 'technique' in terms of describing and explaining the basics of 'what needs to happen', and not precisely 'how to make' those things happen. I think our personal differences regarding sensation and muscle control makes it difficult to teach or understand exactly how the actions are done. But I do believe a player can get an understanding of 'what needs to happen', and then search and work to develop the actions that accomplish it.

Trying to gain that understanding in a DIY manner is possible, but a big problem is not knowing what needs to be known.

A teacher who does have the knowledge and teaching skill ought to be able to quickly identify 'technique deficiencies', and then provide the guidance to correct them. But from reading numerous posts about this, it appears that many teachers don't have that ability, or are reluctant to take that approach with their students - perhaps due to complaints and negative feedback about detailed instruction that didn't work to the student's expectation.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm one who struggled with the nature-vs-nurture question for years. The analytical side of me wanted to know how and why and it often paralyzed my musical side. The best teacher I ever had told me what to do without telling me why. When things worked, he left it to me to figure out why it worked. Sometimes overanalyzing what worked caused it to stop working and the old problems returned, sometimes with a vengeance. It took many sessions with this great teacher to learn to let go and just do. Forty years later I still struggle, but I think back to what he taught me and it always works. I've stopped wondering why.
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jhahntpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My stance with beginners is that I don't want to say more than I need to. I have had many instances where adult students tend to be paralyzed by needing feedback after everything they do assuming that one little tweak gets them from unable to play to the Carnegie Hall stage.

I focus primarily on making noise early on. If they're making a big sound, I'm doing my job.

The only technique based non-negotiable that I have is hand positioning. I insist my students hold their horn a certain way so they have the best chance to press the valves straight up and down and not cause them to stick all the time. Other than that, I try to find what works for each kid.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhahntpt wrote:
My stance with beginners is that I don't want to say more than I need to. I have had many instances where adult students tend to be paralyzed by needing feedback after everything they do assuming that one little tweak gets them from unable to play to the Carnegie Hall stage.

I focus primarily on making noise early on. If they're making a big sound, I'm doing my job.

The only technique based non-negotiable that I have is hand positioning. I insist my students hold their horn a certain way so they have the best chance to press the valves straight up and down and not cause them to stick all the time. Other than that, I try to find what works for each kid.

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"So, for those of you who are professionals and teachers, and especially those . . who play in top tier organisations . . "

Boy, I'm impressed. I didn't know this Forum had so many top-tier performers and pedagogues. Nice to see some of you come out of the woodwork.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at this from the wrong direction - top level only - is a mistake. Look instead at the grass roots, or at the remedial teachers and is may be easier to see which way is the better option.

That said, after teaching for some 40 years, sound is number one. Sound like junk and no one cares what you are playing, so this is something I try to get my students to focus on.

Then there’s the how to play a passage, that’s technique. It’s not production, the skills needed to create a good sound, it’s the skills needed to navigate the music successfully.

And there’s the word. Skills. Playing music is a skills based activity. If you have those skills internalised, then you can realise the music you wish to play and make it ‘sound’.

Bottom line, no skills, no sound, no play.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:
I'm one who struggled with the nature-vs-nurture question for years. The analytical side of me wanted to know how and why and it often paralyzed my musical side. The best teacher I ever had told me what to do without telling me why. When things worked, he left it to me to figure out why it worked. Sometimes overanalyzing what worked caused it to stop working and the old problems returned, sometimes with a vengeance. It took many sessions with this great teacher to learn to let go and just do. Forty years later I still struggle, but I think back to what he taught me and it always works. I've stopped wondering why.


Great post and answer to the question. When I started my comeback my first teacher (John Mohan) took this approach. After two years I decided to forge ahead on my own stopped taking lessons. After a year or two I would take periodic lessons from people to get a different perspective, however I would usually go back to the things that John initially showed me because they had worked. At one point I was in a search for the "why and how" and happened to be taking a lesson from James Blackwell and I remember his exact words: "Gary, you cant just intellectualize this stuff."
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Boy, I'm impressed. I didn't know this Forum had so many top-tier performers and pedagogues. Nice to see some of you come out of the woodwork.

Any musician who plays the trumpet is top-tier.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
Ray Crisara taught me in almost exclusively musical terms. He once called some notes in a passage that skipped around “belly button” notes, but otherwise he just gave me musical instructions — dynamics, articulation, notes to focus on, etc. There was zero discussion of the lips, tongue, air, or even sound really. He only occasionally played for me to demonstrate — only when I really wasn’t getting it. We didn’t sing, or buzz anything; just worked out of Arban, played lots of etudes, and dealt with everything as musicians, not trumpet players.

I came to him as a severely broken trumpet player — regular lip pain when I played and by far the weakest among my peers. Everything was a mess. I sounded bad, had a limited range, and it hurt to play. If anyone needed direct physical instruction it was me. I left with the foundation for a productive playing career. His teaching took me places I would have never imagined. He didn’t seem dogmatic about his focus. To him it just seemed more practical and reliable.

It was a common experience among his students to work on their etudes through the week, but still have a few passages that seemed impossible come lesson time. Somehow during the lesson, just by fixing the musical idea, the impossible would suddenly become easy. It seemed like magic, but he’d just say that “good music plays better” and move on to something harder.

My own teaching sits more in the middle, although with a lean to the music and sound focus, but I sometimes wonder what would happen if I fully embraced the music only approach of my youth.

It sounds like there's some important element(s) missing from your story. It doesn't make sense that if someone is having severe mechanical problems that "just speaking in musical terms" is going to do anything to correct the problems.

This -

"just by fixing the musical idea, the impossible would suddenly become easy"

sounds dramatic and poetic but not realistic. It also doesn't match the rest of what you say - you say you do work on the technical with students. If you really believed in this "musical only" approach that's what you'd do. No, I don't believe Ray Crisara had "magical" insights into musicality that no one else had.

I guarantee if this is really how he taught he had some frustrated students who didn't progress but you never heard about them.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ie golf swing technique.

From Caddyshack
There is a special force in this universe Danny.

Be the ball Danny, just be the ball, be the ball…..

You’re not being the ball

Well its a little hard with you talking right now.
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