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Opinions pls Olds Recording or Mendez or Super vs Special


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dwgib
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:59 pm    Post subject: Opinions pls Olds Recording or Mendez or Super vs Special Reply with quote

Curious about opinions from those that know the difference about whether the 1950's-1972 Olds Super or Mendez or Recording or Studio is worth the premium over the Olds Special that they all seem to command. I can find "Special"'s in the $300-500 range, but the rest are like minimum of $800-900.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of those sound like a good deal to me.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a very qualified answer, I know, but I’ll post it anyway. A pro I know actually favors the Special, mostly for use in big band and combo jazz. Another pro really likes the Studio for its brilliant sound.

A non-pro I know (me ) had issues with a Mendez. The blow was very different from other horns I am accustomed to though I could not really pinpoint why that was. I did play said Mendez at Dillons a while (pre-pandemic) back and I definitely preferred other horns. Might have been the mouthpiece yada yada yada but it wasn’t for me.

Still waiting for my new to me Olds Studio cornet to get a clean up; then I’ll report back on the cornet side of things.

Oh yeah, I also agree that given the prices you mention they sound like pretty good deals, too.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Not a very qualified answer, I know, but I’ll post it anyway. A pro I know actually favors the Special, mostly for use in big band and combo jazz. Another pro really likes the Studio for its brilliant sound.

A non-pro I know (me ) had issues with a Mendez. The blow was very different from other horns I am accustomed to though I could not really pinpoint why that was. I did play said Mendez at Dillons a while (pre-pandemic) back and I definitely preferred other horns. Might have been the mouthpiece yada yada yada but it wasn’t for me.

Still waiting for my new to me Olds Studio cornet to get a clean up; then I’ll report back on the cornet side of things.

Oh yeah, I also agree that given the prices you mention they sound like pretty good deals, too.


Thanks, qualified enough for me because I have no idea, just read that they're good, so want to try, but all seem very similar. I read something at https://trumpet-history.com/Olds%20Trumpet%20Models.pdf page 10 I think
"Significant Characteristics: To satisfy Mendez, the valves had to be buffed down to leak. It is unclear how many production units share this trait."

Seemed strange to me, but maybe why you didn't like it.

The prices are just the lowest I've seen, although I was upset I missed a really good shape 1954 Special yesterday for under $200, I should've bid more but didn't know there were 3 others waiting to snipe the auction.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I much rather prefer my Supers over the Mendez, only tried one Special.
It was light and brilliant, but played similarly to my Benges.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say light and brilliant, are you referring to the special? Ideally one with a nickel/bronze bell? That would be the sound I like and would be looking for but I seem to be the King of Missed Opportunities at the moment: a Radial 66, a Conn 8B, and a Special just sailed past me (not that I need another horn really, but you know).
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:16 am    Post subject: Olds Reply with quote

Hello all,
I can only comment on the Super/Special comparison. The Super I had was mid 40's, and it played tighter than I had expected. It really did not live up to the hype. My Special is a late 40's, that has the receiverless leadpipe. Other than showing needs of a valve job, it plays great. Nice and open, with plenty of zing.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "over-lapped" valves on the prototype Mendez were likely a one-off. Mendez played a French Besson that had completely worn out valves, and when he was at Olds trying prototypes, they couldn't find anything that he liked better than his old Besson, despite having copied his original instrument and greatly improved the quality (Olds was quite remarkable in their day for overall quality and fit of pistons). They decided to build a horn with valves as leaky as his old Besson, and Mendez ended up liking that one more than his old horn. If they made anymore with leaky valves, it likely would have been in the set of 25-50 prototypes that they Gave to Mendez to give away to his friends and family (he supposedly gave one to Louis Armstrong). The production Mendez horns would have been built to the same tolerance of all of the other Olds instruments.



If you're looking to start collecting Olds, stick to pre-1967 instruments. Fullerton vs. LA isn't too important, but LA horns will generally command a higher price as there are fewer of them, but quality is very consistent across the board, with Fullerton horns probably being slightly nicer in my opinion. My favorite Olds is the pre-WWII Super, followed by the Opera. The later Supers are nice, but are a bit heavier than the early horns and have a more dense tone. You can't go wrong with any Olds from the golden age of the company, so look for one in good shape and enjoy it.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like we’re moving off into the collection side of things a little bit. For a while I did have the idea to collect one of each of the Olds cornets. The are neat visually and cheaper than their trumpet counterparts. I do however come to the conclusion quite regularly (once a day or so …) that really the team in my signature is all I need (not even sure on the cornet, really).

I would still like to have an Olds Special, a Selmer Radial, and a Conn 6B just because they look cool. Given past experiences with additional stuff, however, I’d probably have them for awhile and would then sell them again. Would also be interested in an Opera and Contempora, but again, don’t really need them.

Sorry for the detour, back to topic!

@Christian K. Peters: does your Special have the nickel/bronze bell or is it plain brass? Over here someone is selling (supposedly, no pictures of the engraving are shown) an all brass Special from 1950.
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jeirvine
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Olds Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
I can only comment on the Super/Special comparison. The Super I had was mid 40's, and it played tighter than I had expected. It really did not live up to the hype. My Special is a late 40's, that has the receiverless leadpipe. Other than showing needs of a valve job, it plays great. Nice and open, with plenty of zing.


Interesting. My '46 Super and '49 (receiverless) Special play very much alike to me - both open and what I would call effortless. I'd be hard pressed to choose between them.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
When you say light and brilliant, are you referring to the special? Ideally one with a nickel/bronze bell? That would be the sound I like and would be looking for
Yes, but not sure about the bell...it belongs to a friend of mine so I will ask and message you.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trumpetplayer besides me in the symphonic orchestra use to play a '50s Olds Super but showed up last rehearsel with a '90s Vincent Bach Stradivarius 180-37 with reverse leadpipe.
I could not believe my ears... The Bach was superb all the way; sound, projection, tuning, this Bach was a real pro horn compared to that Olds Super.
Actually, I once posessed two very nice playing Olds Super trumpets but let us say that there is a reason that I sold them: Even my Conn 22B NYS from 1924 with leaky valves outplayed both Olds Supers by far, not just soundwise, playability as well
My former trumpet teacher had a Olds Recording. Well, that horn is another book. I think a technically good Recording is a horn you can consider to buy for using daily, the others are fun to play but not so much more
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Tivolian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I owned a 1955 super and currently have a 1958 Mendez and a 1959 Recording. I liked the Super quite a bit but ended up trading it. The Mendez is very fun and easy to play and I love its sound, somewhere between a jazz sound from bygone days and a refined modern sound. Hard to describe but fantastic. A lot has been said about how amazing Recordings are, and I agree. Can’t go wrong with a Mendez or Recording in good shape. Never played a Special.
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jlambmusic
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vintage Olds are fantastic American made horns from a bygone era. I have tried Supers, Specials, Standards and Recordings and even a Super Recording years ago.

The Olds Reording (and SR) is quite a unique horn out of the group as it has a red brass bell and a balanced action design where the vavle block is postioned a bit closer to the bell for better ergonomics. Not to mention the intentional offset 2nd valve casing/finger button to sort of match the position of your hand (middle finger is longer). I personally think it should command a higher premium compared to the other horns you mentioned just from the cool design itself. Of course, these horns also play fantastic with a warm fat tone and can really light up with consistent control when you push it. I've also known some legit players who have performed with their vintage Olds Recordings.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jlambmusic wrote:
Vintage Olds are fantastic American made horns from a bygone era. I have tried Supers, Specials, Standards and Recordings and even a Super Recording years ago.

The Olds Reording (and SR) is quite a unique horn out of the group as it has a red brass bell and a balanced action design where the vavle block is postioned a bit closer to the bell for better ergonomics. Not to mention the intentional offset 2nd valve casing/finger button to sort of match the position of your hand (middle finger is longer). I personally think it should command a higher premium compared to the other horns you mentioned just from the cool design itself. Of course, these horns also play fantastic with a warm fat tone and can really light up with consistent control when you push it. I've also known some legit players who have performed with their vintage Olds Recordings.


Thanks for the info, this all is new to me because I never thought of Olds as a great horn, even though I never played one. I think it was stuck in my head from my HS days, I was 1st trumpet in all the bands and my good friend Larry Patton was 2nd trumpet. I had sold my King Cleveland in 9th grade and bought myself a Bach Strad, Larry had an Olds Ambassador and I had tried it and didn't think much of it more than my old King. Maybe I got snobbish, lol, I did love that Bach. Sold it to Larry on the condition I could buy it back for the same price when I got out, when I went into the USAF. Don't ask me why. I think I didn't think I was coming back or something, lol.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
Thanks for the info, this all is new to me because I never thought of Olds as a great horn, even though I never played one.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30744&highlight=olds+super+recording+unicorn

Even though it's not Olds specific, you might also like to read this:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=161637&highlight=olds+super+recording+unicorn
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an Olds Recording (1962 Fullerton), an Olds Super Recording (1947 Los Angeles), an Olds Mendez (1966 Fullerton), an Olds Super (1947 Los Angeles) and an Olds Opera (1965 Fullerton) in my collection.

The Olds Recording trumpet is one of the best trumpets ever made. It produces a wonderful sound and has great mechanics and ergonomics. As good as the Super Recording is, and many think it's one of the greatest trumpets ever made, I like my Recording better because it produces a richer sound thanks to it's red brass bell and leadpipe. Contrary to what was posted earlier, the Super Recording has a yellow brass bell, not a red brass bell, and mine is the dual leadpipe model (leadpipe within an outer nickel silver tube), so it produces a brighter sound than my Recording.

The Mendez is a great horn, too. It is one of the two best slotting trumpets I own. It's easy to be very precise with the Mendez.

The Super had several incarnations with the weight varying considerably. Mine is an extremely lightweight model. It is a big step down from the Super Recording, Recording and Mendez in terms of its sound and projection although it is very nimble and easy to play.

The Opera is a much different trumpet from the other models in that it is a large bore and the mandrel used to form the bell was unique to the Opera model. It's a very fine horn as are all the classic Olds trumpets but if you're going to own just one Olds the one to own is the Recording, one of the all time greatest horns ever made.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
dwgib wrote:
Thanks for the info, this all is new to me because I never thought of Olds as a great horn, even though I never played one.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30744&highlight=olds+super+recording+unicorn

Even though it's not Olds specific, you might also like to read this:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=161637&highlight=olds+super+recording+unicorn


Thanks, those were very interesting read, especially the one by Perry d'Andrea, it's like the be-all/end-all review of Olds trumpets, is he still around? Very interesting that he'd be sooo involved with trumpets as I have a trumpet with his name on it that I've been trying to find out about. It's a brand named "d'Andrea" made in Italy, from likely the 1930's.
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kramergfy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only echo the sentiments presented about the Recording, Super Recording, and early Supers.

I also enjoy my '50 Recording the most. It is a broad rich sound, with the nice core that can really sizzle.

The Super Recording is more focused/centered, with a "cleaner" sound, maybe more collected. But still diamond dense, and rich. Better slotting horn, more precise.

The Super is even more centered, less broad and rich than either. But its not "bright", it has a very very dense core, its just centered.

I've also been told by one of the most respected brass repair technicians that its a myth the Olds bells were all from the same mandrel. They all mostly have different bell tapers, and alloys.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
@Christian K. Peters:


I'm very sorry to stray from the worthy topic, but why do some of you address statements to individuals like the above quote, using "@"?
Like, "@Santa Claus, please bring me a Super Recording."
I keep seeing it and I don't know it's meaning.
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