Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:31 pm Post subject:
SMrtn wrote:
all i want is the how, not a bunch of silly circular reasoning based on the striking of tuning forks and self affirming beliefs.
so, if anyone else knows how a miniscule piece of flesh vibrating into a metal object produces a different sound depending upon the material the metal object is made out of, please enlighten me.
although, i suspect this topic has been done to death and no one has ever been able to produce any actual evidence. but, i'm happy to be proven wrong in this regard.
If you want a quick answer, different materials have differing densities, and their physical structures also vary, resulting in amplifying and highlighting certain overtone spectra over others. Having played for many years sterling silver bell horns alongside the yellow brass, bronze, gold brass, and some dual-material (bell stem vs flair) horns, I have found a notable difference in tonal qualities, all other elements being constant. The thing is that for optimal results, all things should not be kept constant, but rather design attributes should consider the material choice and musical goals involved.
When it comes to mouthpieces, I’ve been somewhere around 30 years playing gold plated (over silver) brass mouthpieces. I once owned a Maurice Benterfa wooden cup mpc, and I have some colleagues who swear by stainless steel, others who have found acrylic cups to meet their needs. For the foreseeable future, I’m good with the material choices I’ve made with my mouthpieces. Individual results will vary.
If the above isn’t a sufficiently simple, succinct answer to your question, I’m afraid you’re looking for some scientific data set far more involved than you’re likely to find here - JSTOR may reveal some interesting dissertations.
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
Posted: Mon May 15, 2023 5:33 pm Post subject:
SMrtn wrote:
all i want is the how, not a bunch of silly circular reasoning based on the striking of tuning forks and self affirming beliefs.
so, if anyone else knows how a miniscule piece of flesh vibrating into a metal object produces a different sound depending upon the material the metal object is made out of, please enlighten me.
although, i suspect this topic has been done to death and no one has ever been able to produce any actual evidence. but, i'm happy to be proven wrong in this regard.
Lmao. I could break it down like a kindergarten and you would still reject science of sound waves and how it works. You are bound and determined to reject anything scientific because you refuse to accept how sound and trumpets and metallurgy works. How a Soundwave and vibration works doesn't matter whether you strike it via a tuning fork, large bell, mallet, vibrating lips or even a Reed from a clarinet or obo. Sound is a wave and vibration. It travels through objects either air or solid objects. The mass of that objects effect the frequency ie the speed the wave travels as well as the added frequencies it picks up. Other objects vibrate different adding other frequencies to the sound which colors what we hear. Denser materials slow down the sound wave as well as vibrate at a vibrate slower and dampen the sound. Less dense materials vibrate faster. Sound waves move more quickly through the materials and you get higher pitched overtones.
This is the whole reason the tuning fork and construction is very relevant. It's also why tuning forks were used to tune instruments. They can be constructed to produce specific pitches by being made out of specific materials to a specific size to produce a specific sound wave vibration. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger
all i want is the how, not a bunch of silly circular reasoning based on the striking of tuning forks and self affirming beliefs.
so, if anyone else knows how a miniscule piece of flesh vibrating into a metal object produces a different sound depending upon the material the metal object is made out of, please enlighten me.
although, i suspect this topic has been done to death and no one has ever been able to produce any actual evidence. but, i'm happy to be proven wrong in this regard.
If you want a quick answer, different materials have differing densities, and their physical structures also vary, resulting in amplifying and highlighting certain overtone spectra over others. Having played for many years sterling silver bell horns alongside the yellow brass, bronze, gold brass, and some dual-material (bell stem vs flair) horns, I have found a notable difference in tonal qualities, all other elements being constant. The thing is that for optimal results, all things should not be kept constant, but rather design attributes should consider the material choice and musical goals involved.
When it comes to mouthpieces, I’ve been somewhere around 30 years playing gold plated (over silver) brass mouthpieces. I once owned a Maurice Benterfa wooden cup mpc, and I have some colleagues who swear by stainless steel, others who have found acrylic cups to meet their needs. For the foreseeable future, I’m good with the material choices I’ve made with my mouthpieces. Individual results will vary.
If the above isn’t a sufficiently simple, succinct answer to your question, I’m afraid you’re looking for some scientific data set far more involved than you’re likely to find here - JSTOR may reveal some interesting dissertations.
-DB
very interesting article. the fact that the more inert the material, the better its properties when used for the trumpet, is revealing. the paragraphs on lacquered v plated also very revealing.
prior to reading that article i'd always assumed that material made no difference at all - lacquered/unlacquered, ditto. at the same time, the sound differences are small but for someone looking for something specific, they are important. i will definitely have to do some research at JSTOR. lol.
well, thanks for the input db, i never thought i'd begin to move in the materials make a difference direction, but here i am. thanks again.
I have to chime in again on these.... I've been buying different sizes and variations to try out as I really like my 3XL2B. I had a brass high compression version that I really dig, but the feeling of the piece on my chops wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I chalked it up to the HC part of the mouthpiece and decided to just get a brass version of the 3XL2 that I like so much. First of all, the two pieces are completely different lengths. The rims are also not the same! This is the 3rd time this has happened to me with a Lotus piece. The new 3XL2 has a less rounded entrance into the cup and the cup feels slightly tighter in general. It's not just a feel thing. I can see it if I hold the 2 cups up next to each other. While I still really love my 3XL2B, I just can't recommend these pieces anymore, and I've encountered way too much inconsistency in their production. Not saying any particular variation is bad, but the fact that there is so much variation, makes it impossible for me to experiment with different cups/materials as it's like getting a completely different mouthpiece. I know some players can play a variety of sizes, but I'm not one of them. I really wish that the new 3XL2 I just bought felt exactly like the bronze version, but unfortunately, it does not. I don't know if this is intentional on Lotus's part, but if it is, they really need to put in writing somewhere so that people don't waste their time money on mouthpieces that do not work.
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 5:41 am Post subject:
nick8801 wrote:
I have to chime in again on these.... I've been buying different sizes and variations to try out as I really like my 3XL2B. I had a brass high compression version that I really dig, but the feeling of the piece on my chops wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I chalked it up to the HC part of the mouthpiece and decided to just get a brass version of the 3XL2 that I like so much. First of all, the two pieces are completely different lengths. The rims are also not the same! This is the 3rd time this has happened to me with a Lotus piece. The new 3XL2 has a less rounded entrance into the cup and the cup feels slightly tighter in general. It's not just a feel thing. I can see it if I hold the 2 cups up next to each other. While I still really love my 3XL2B, I just can't recommend these pieces anymore, and I've encountered way too much inconsistency in their production. Not saying any particular variation is bad, but the fact that there is so much variation, makes it impossible for me to experiment with different cups/materials as it's like getting a completely different mouthpiece. I know some players can play a variety of sizes, but I'm not one of them. I really wish that the new 3XL2 I just bought felt exactly like the bronze version, but unfortunately, it does not. I don't know if this is intentional on Lotus's part, but if it is, they really need to put in writing somewhere so that people don't waste their time money on mouthpieces that do not work.
I have to agree to a certain extent. The 3LB I have is older and it's very obvious that the outer edges are more rounded than the other pieces I have. I'm not sure if there are any internal differences, but I do feel as if it plays different/better than the 3L I have that's in brass. It almost seems just a tad shallower.
I also went through several returns and exchanges when first ordering because of quality control issues. From what I was told they admit to some hiccups when launching but believe they're all cleaned up. At one point I even had Charley hand picking pieces out before they were shipped to me, to make sure they matched. I'd say they are now close enough that it doesn't effect my playing, but the 3LB is still "different" in some way.
Lastly my 3LB and 3L are the same length, the 3M a bit shorter, and the 3S shorter still. Charley says this is correct.
I have to chime in again on these.... I've been buying different sizes and variations to try out as I really like my 3XL2B. I had a brass high compression version that I really dig, but the feeling of the piece on my chops wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I chalked it up to the HC part of the mouthpiece and decided to just get a brass version of the 3XL2 that I like so much. First of all, the two pieces are completely different lengths. The rims are also not the same! This is the 3rd time this has happened to me with a Lotus piece. The new 3XL2 has a less rounded entrance into the cup and the cup feels slightly tighter in general. It's not just a feel thing. I can see it if I hold the 2 cups up next to each other. While I still really love my 3XL2B, I just can't recommend these pieces anymore, and I've encountered way too much inconsistency in their production. Not saying any particular variation is bad, but the fact that there is so much variation, makes it impossible for me to experiment with different cups/materials as it's like getting a completely different mouthpiece. I know some players can play a variety of sizes, but I'm not one of them. I really wish that the new 3XL2 I just bought felt exactly like the bronze version, but unfortunately, it does not. I don't know if this is intentional on Lotus's part, but if it is, they really need to put in writing somewhere so that people don't waste their time money on mouthpieces that do not work.
I have to agree to a certain extent. The 3LB I have is older and it's very obvious that the outer edges are more rounded than the other pieces I have. I'm not sure if there are any internal differences, but I do feel as if it plays different/better than the 3L I have that's in brass. It almost seems just a tad shallower.
I also went through several returns and exchanges when first ordering because of quality control issues. From what I was told they admit to some hiccups when launching but believe they're all cleaned up. At one point I even had Charley hand picking pieces out before they were shipped to me, to make sure they matched. I'd say they are now close enough that it doesn't effect my playing, but the 3LB is still "different" in some way.
Lastly my 3LB and 3L are the same length, the 3M a bit shorter, and the 3S shorter still. Charley says this is correct.
My 3XL2B is a newer model so I don't see why it would be so different from the 3XL2 I just purchased. As far as lengths go, I understand that different cups require different lengths to balance out the piece, but why are two of the same pieces a different length? It's just a mess. I've emailed Charley a few times, and while he is helpful and admits to earlier production inconstancies, it still takes like a week to get a response, and I would hope that these production issues would be worked out by now. Especially considering the amount of marketing the company is doing. I definitely gave these a fair chance, but I'm rather unhappy at the moment. I just want a version of my XL2B that feels the same but is brighter for more versatility.
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posted: Mon May 22, 2023 6:11 am Post subject:
Yes, that's very disappointing and frustrating. Especially since yours are both newer pieces.
I've had many emails back and forth with Charley, and while he is helpful, it does take a while. Like I said, it took me quite a few returns to get to a point where I felt the pieces I had were consistent...or at least close enough to be satisfied.
Sadly I feel like Lotus has become notorious for equipment inconsistencies and terrible customer service.
They sure don’t slack when it comes to marketing though. It seems like every week there is a new Lotus Artist announced to push their equipment. _________________ Thane Performing Artist
www.youtube.com/ericmpena https://thanetrumpets.com/
Can any Lotus mouthpiece users please explain what's the difference so that people play easier as seen on youtube video above?
I have no chance to try in a local shop, whats secret recipe of Lotus?
I'm very curious if its possible to make that kind of mouthpieces why other brands don't produce similar or update their mouthpieces?
The secret to successfully using Lotus pieces is … tadaaa … practice. They are not inherently better or something but they have a seemingly enormous marketing machinery behind them.
I liked the sound and the appearance of my 3S in nickel silver. Could have been my lead and commercial mouthpiece - if it just had a more comfortable rim. Really sharp inner bite, very uncomfortable. So I sold it again. As it was a piece I had bought used I came out even.
Like every other mouthpiece some people like them, some don’t. No magic has been involved in the design, though they try to make you believe otherwise. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
It’s all marketing…and probably a bit of the honeymoon effect where new equipment feels incredible for a short time.
Once that feeling dies off, you’ll realize that you’re still the same player with another mouthpiece added to the collection. _________________ Thane Performing Artist
www.youtube.com/ericmpena https://thanetrumpets.com/
Oh yeah, practice is first and foremost. I am literally down to six mouthpieces for trumpet (one for flugel and for cornet) and guess what I am playing now for my orchestral playing? My old JK 5C that came with my first trumpet in 1980 … not the same model, the actual piece: 43 years old and it works just great.
For C, lead, and commercial I’ll stick with my ARs. Still, it’s quite cool to have the buddies in the orchestras and brass groups come up with their gear and I’ll just say: yeah, I’m actually on my first mouthpiece _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Can any Lotus mouthpiece users please explain what's the difference so that people play easier as seen on youtube video above?
I have no chance to try in a local shop, whats secret recipe of Lotus?
I'm very curious if its possible to make that kind of mouthpieces why other brands don't produce similar or update their mouthpieces?
Thanks in advance.
The physical difference between a Lotus and a Bach mouthpiece is the overall length of the mouthpiece (the Lotus is a bit shorter), and the throat size (generally larger on lotus, but some have smaller throats). Shortening the length of the mouthpiece changes the intonation of some partials, making top space E in tune on an equal tempered scale (sharp relative to a conventional setup). The upper register (especially high C and above) also tend to be sharp on a shorter mouthpiece, which lines up more closely with an equal tempered scale. These notes are usually flat on conventional setups, so if you are accustomed to hearing an equal tempered scale, as most people are, the Lotus/Monette/AR/Egger Galileo/Best Brass/ACB/etc. mouthpiece will feel easier to play in the upper register, and you will be less likely to chip notes that are normally a bit flat. If you are able to learn to adjust to the new intonation tendencies, you can back off in the upper register and let the notes sit a bit flat relative to the mouthpiece (flat relative to the tendency of the mouthpiece puts them in tune on an equal tempered scale), which makes playing much easier.
Why haven't other manufacturers caught on? Well, the first popular short-shank mouthpieces we're made by Holton for Gustav Heim in the 30's and 40's, and those mouthpieces were used by Clark Terry and Miles Davis (among others), so it's not a new idea. The big manufacturers (bach, yamaha, etc.) are all well aware of the popularity of Monette et. al but choose to make conventional mouthpieces because their roster of endorsing artists (lots of classical musicians, but some jazz and commercial players too) prefer the traditional sound and response of the conventional design, and for their biggest customers (classical musicians, band programs, students, etc.) conventional mouthpieces yield the best results because the harmonic series lines up closely with the intonation tendencies of the mouthpieces, so they will sound great when played in "friendly" keys for brass instruments (the flat top space E sounds in tune when played in a C major triad). For every famous player that has switched to a "modern" mouthpiece, you can find another who has switched back to a "traditional" mouthpiece, which would suggest that it has more to do with preference than a magic formula.
Everyone plays trumpet a little differently, so if you find a mouthpiece that works for you, great! There's no harm in trying new things, asking questions, and keeping an open mind.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject:
Goby wrote:
Revo wrote:
Can any Lotus mouthpiece users please explain what's the difference so that people play easier as seen on youtube video above?
I have no chance to try in a local shop, whats secret recipe of Lotus?
I'm very curious if its possible to make that kind of mouthpieces why other brands don't produce similar or update their mouthpieces?
Thanks in advance.
The physical difference between a Lotus and a Bach mouthpiece is the overall length of the mouthpiece (the Lotus is a bit shorter), and the throat size (generally larger on lotus, but some have smaller throats). Shortening the length of the mouthpiece changes the intonation of some partials, making top space E in tune on an equal tempered scale (sharp relative to a conventional setup). The upper register (especially high C and above) also tend to be sharp on a shorter mouthpiece, which lines up more closely with an equal tempered scale. These notes are usually flat on conventional setups, so if you are accustomed to hearing an equal tempered scale, as most people are, the Lotus/Monette/AR/Egger Galileo/Best Brass/ACB/etc. mouthpiece will feel easier to play in the upper register, and you will be less likely to chip notes that are normally a bit flat. If you are able to learn to adjust to the new intonation tendencies, you can back off in the upper register and let the notes sit a bit flat relative to the mouthpiece (flat relative to the tendency of the mouthpiece puts them in tune on an equal tempered scale), which makes playing much easier.
Why haven't other manufacturers caught on? Well, the first popular short-shank mouthpieces we're made by Holton for Gustav Heim in the 30's and 40's, and those mouthpieces were used by Clark Terry and Miles Davis (among others), so it's not a new idea. The big manufacturers (bach, yamaha, etc.) are all well aware of the popularity of Monette et. al but choose to make conventional mouthpieces because their roster of endorsing artists (lots of classical musicians, but some jazz and commercial players too) prefer the traditional sound and response of the conventional design, and for their biggest customers (classical musicians, band programs, students, etc.) conventional mouthpieces yield the best results because the harmonic series lines up closely with the intonation tendencies of the mouthpieces, so they will sound great when played in "friendly" keys for brass instruments (the flat top space E sounds in tune when played in a C major triad). For every famous player that has switched to a "modern" mouthpiece, you can find another who has switched back to a "traditional" mouthpiece, which would suggest that it has more to do with preference than a magic formula.
Everyone plays trumpet a little differently, so if you find a mouthpiece that works for you, great! There's no harm in trying new things, asking questions, and keeping an open mind.
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